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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 20:32
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tiompan wrote: Evergreen Dazed wrote: tiompan wrote: The exceptions , i.e. the classic major monument examples , alone should be enough to alert us to an interest An interest most definitely, a preoccupation with or major reason to build, i'd say no. tiompan wrote: There is the regional variation whereby some areas, at some point , choose a "quarter " to orient their monuments towards ,and this can change over time in the same area . How do we know that had anything to do with the sky? tiompan wrote: What is clear though is that the vast majority face the part of the sky where the sun or moon will be seen sometime in the year . Admittedly that is a large percentage of the horizon , but the remaining percentage is much bigger than the tiny percentage of monuments that don't face the sun or moon . But why such vagueness when we know they can get it* spot on when desired? *are we to blame in deciding what is significant? tiompan wrote: There is also a significant percentage that face roughly east i.e. 60 - 120 degrees . What does that indicate in terms of the sky? Not sure how to deal with the visual aspect (of the text ) . I agree about astronomy being far from primary or reason to build . I doubt "observation " came into either for that matter . We don't know for sure that the regional orientations had anything to do with astronomy . But there is a clue that suggests it is . When we look at all the regions, as there is the common denominator ,i.e.the vast majority face the part of the sky where the sun , in particular , can be seen at some point in the year . We can show that it wasn't related to the landscape or the horizon , peaks /troughs etc as within the same groupings the horizon can be quite different .It has always puzzled me how the direction of orientation can be maintained when the horizon and heavenly bodies will look different from monument to monument , yet the bearing will be the same . Any thoughts ? My guess is that the vagueness is not inability , it's just not what matters and it probably is us wanting to wrap it up all up simply with the aligning to astro events, and when they don't, i.e. in the vast majority of cases just ignore it or think they somehow got it wrong . I didn't understand "What does that indicate in terms of the sky?"[/quote] No problem. If you want to, you just put the 'quote with name' brackets bit before or above the text, and the /quote in brackets after or below. it then shows it as the named persons quote. but not necessary and often a pain to keep copying/pasting. I'm not sure I understand your question re maintaining orientation - two LBs 5 miles apart, both facing east, first one aligned on the sun at a low horizon point, depending on the increase in horizon height as the sun moves, both could point to the equinox sunrise . Have I got that right? I'm sure thats not what you meant?
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 20:38
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tiompan wrote: Evergreen Dazed wrote: tiompan wrote: tjj wrote: Evergreen Dazed wrote: Apart from a few notable exceptions, i'm beginning to think, *as far as monument orientations are concerned*, there isn't much to support the idea that neolithic people were concerned with what was going on in the sky, or what time of year it was! Fair? I wouldn't agree that they weren't concerned about what time of year it was - these 'pagan festivals' all pre-date Christianity otherwise we wouldn't have Christmas or Johnmas (as it is known on Orkney) i.e. midsummer. No written evidence that I'm not talking imbolics of course. Sun and moon , and sometimes stars is all we had to know where we were in the cycle , or even get about , they work really well . Indeed but i'm not sure we should assume 'the cycle' was a part of their monument building. Still 'of the sky' of course, but perhaps some monuments were orientated to the position of the sun on the morning after an individual died, or some other event significant to the community. I agree to an extent , but aligning a building to an event that is also culturally/cosmologically important would provide another level of importance for the building ,bigger juju . It has often been suggested ,but so many ,I have posted quite a few don't face a part of the horizon where the sun or moon will be seen to rise ,i.e. they are already well up above the horizon .Then there is the problem of regional variation where groups share a relatively narrow band of orientation , did everyone die around the same date ? I immediately pictured the angle of a sloping capstone! Yes, groups with narrow band of orientation would be a major problem for any theory along those lines. But I still like the broad idea. Food for thought there.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 21:03
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Evergreen Dazed wrote: tiompan wrote: Evergreen Dazed wrote: tiompan wrote: The exceptions , i.e. the classic major monument examples , alone should be enough to alert us to an interest An interest most definitely, a preoccupation with or major reason to build, i'd say no. tiompan wrote: There is the regional variation whereby some areas, at some point , choose a "quarter " to orient their monuments towards ,and this can change over time in the same area . How do we know that had anything to do with the sky? tiompan wrote: What is clear though is that the vast majority face the part of the sky where the sun or moon will be seen sometime in the year . Admittedly that is a large percentage of the horizon , but the remaining percentage is much bigger than the tiny percentage of monuments that don't face the sun or moon . But why such vagueness when we know they can get it* spot on when desired? *are we to blame in deciding what is significant? tiompan wrote: There is also a significant percentage that face roughly east i.e. 60 - 120 degrees . What does that indicate in terms of the sky? Not sure how to deal with the visual aspect (of the text ) . I agree about astronomy being far from primary or reason to build . I doubt "observation " came into either for that matter . We don't know for sure that the regional orientations had anything to do with astronomy . But there is a clue that suggests it is . When we look at all the regions, as there is the common denominator ,i.e.the vast majority face the part of the sky where the sun , in particular , can be seen at some point in the year . We can show that it wasn't related to the landscape or the horizon , peaks /troughs etc as within the same groupings the horizon can be quite different .It has always puzzled me how the direction of orientation can be maintained when the horizon and heavenly bodies will look different from monument to monument , yet the bearing will be the same . Any thoughts ? My guess is that the vagueness is not inability , it's just not what matters and it probably is us wanting to wrap it up all up simply with the aligning to astro events, and when they don't, i.e. in the vast majority of cases just ignore it or think they somehow got it wrong . I didn't understand "What does that indicate in terms of the sky?" No problem. If you want to, you just put the 'quote with name' brackets bit before or above the text, and the /quote in brackets after or below. it then shows it as the named persons quote. but not necessary and often a pain to keep copying/pasting. I'm not sure I understand your question re maintaining orientation - two LBs 5 miles apart, both facing east, first one aligned on the sun at a low horizon point, depending on the increase in horizon height as the sun moves, both could point to the equinox sunrise . Have I got that right? I'm sure thats not what you meant? [/quote] Yes your two LB'S would be aligned on the equinox ,and with the same orientation if the horizon for each was similar all that would be required of the builders, is to know when the equinox took place , a matter of counting of days from the solstice . But despite the similarities you might only get get three or four close to that exact alignment ,and there is leeway , maybe about 30 degrees . The counting of days , might explain some similar orientations , i.e. group A decides to orient their monuments on the rising sun 90 days after the winter solstice meanwhile elsewhere group B chooses 111 days . It seems a bit odd/unlikely but it would work . But if the orientation is towards a part of the sky where the sun never rises or sets ,which is often the case ,and that quarter of the horizon could encompass 100 degrees or more then counting won't help .
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 21:08
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I immediately pictured the angle of a sloping capstone! [/quote] Even a level one might do . Polystyrene templates would save a lot of effort .
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spencer 3072 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 21:27
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That is no bad thing, at all at all. 'Scuse I while I nip off to find Cobham's Spectrum.
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spencer 3072 posts |
Edited Feb 01, 2017, 21:42
Feb 01, 2017, 21:41
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I've mentioned it on here before, but I d o wish there was a sacred spring category on TMA. Not something that folk can prove existed for that purpose from the written record in the TMA timeframe, sure. But i s something that's a category elsewhere. Search for 'TMP God's Spring'. Nice place I go to near me, burbling waters issuing from iridescent green moss, nice little stones of antiquity round it. A good place to chill. (I found a settlement of some kind a quarter of a mile wide in the bracken nearby. Inspected. Not TMA timeframe. Sorreee : ( )
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 22:16
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tiompan wrote: Yes your two LB'S would be aligned on the equinox ,and with the same orientation if the horizon for each was similar all that would be required of the builders, is to know when the equinox took place , a matter of counting of days from the solstice . Yes, after my previous post (and as I was heating my dinner up!) I thought that that would simply be a matter of counting. You count from a certain point and set your monument up to face the rising sun on that day. tiompan wrote: But despite the similarities you might only get get three or four close to that exact alignment ,and there is leeway , maybe about 30 degrees . Ok, is the leeway due to different monuments with same orientation but looking towards different horizon heights, but the same number of days counting? I might have that wrong? tiompan wrote: The counting of days , might explain some similar orientations , i.e. group A decides to orient their monuments on the rising sun 90 days after the winter solstice meanwhile elsewhere group B chooses 111 days . Yes, so if I understand, group As (geographical group?) monuments would, depending on horizon height be broadly similar orientations. Whereas Bs would be slightly different but both sets would be similar. tiompan wrote: It seems a bit odd/unlikely but it would work . But if the orientation is towards a part of the sky where the sun never rises or sets ,which is often the case ,and that quarter of the horizon could encompass 100 degrees or more then counting won't help . So those monuments cannot be based on counting because there is no particular indicator, yes? No 'moment'?
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 22:17
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Had to look that one up!
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spencer 3072 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 22:28
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See my post above, pursue the link to 'elsewhere' within. 'They' do it as a category....'Sacred Well or Spring'. Evidence submitted. Nudge nudge, go on, you know you want to..... Just add two words. Then you can go back to looking out the window ; )
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 01, 2017, 23:08
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Evergreen Dazed"Ok, is the leeway due to different monuments with same orientation but looking towards different horizon heights, but the same number of days counting? [/quot wrote: Accepting that counting was the method , that could explain close similarities and variation due to different horizon . It would work , but it would result in much tighter groupings of orientations ,and I'm not convinced that is what punters would do . Evergreen Dazed Yes, so if I understand, group As (geographical group?) monuments would, depending on horizon height be broadly similar orientations. Whereas Bs would be slightly different but both sets would be similar. [/quot wrote: No , B's could be similarish but also dramatically different . e.g. all of the 84 dolmens in Provence all face between 206-286 whereas 90 miles away , all of the 137 recorded dolmens in Aveyron have none facing that quarter with the majority facing 76-135 degrees . A slightly different case due to the temporal and architectural differences is Court Tombs and Wedge tombs where the majority of former face 16-125 and the latter have none facing that quarter but face 226-28 So those monuments cannot be based on counting because there is no particular indicator, yes? No 'm Yes , there is no banana .
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