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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 20:50
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tjj wrote: tiompan wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Two questions for our experts. Is it possible to 'age' unrecorded rock art and at the same time differentiate between two distinct periods (age) of art on the same rock? After 86 posts and about 80 being totally irrelevent to the thread, may I, in an attempt to stabilise things ask a further question that hopefully we can all join in sensibly. Sorry if that sounds patronising but it's not meant to be. Cupmarks. To my untrained eye, many of them look 'natural'. How do you tell the difference between those and the 'manufactured' ones? Roy , quite , and not patronising .I posted this a wee while ago .Might help . http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/14271/non_rock_art.html That is a really helpful link Tiompan. When I first heard about cup marks I started looking for them locally but learnt (from you) that rock art rarely occurs on sarsen because it is so hard. I got quite excited about this stone in a local village (near M4). I don't know if you recall me asking you about it but appreciated the benefit of your expertise. I do tjj , sarsen is not only hard it has these root holes that can make it appear as if it has "cups " .
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thesweetcheat 6218 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 20:52
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Like the fact that people like to decorate stuff and simple geometric patterns are an obvious way to do this (like the dog-tooth design around a Norman arch, or a zigzag design around the rim of an urn). Like the possibility that the motifs had particular meanings, now lost, that related to the culture/religion/landscape/favourite football team/whatever. Like the fact that designs often relate to the shape of the block being carved. None of which has to necessarily have anything to do with mushrooms.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 20:52
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thesweetcheat wrote: The "cup" on the cairn stone is probably 4"-5" across (that's from sketchy memory though). mmmm , that is still quite big , e.g. I think that 70mm is quite big ,although you do get some that are bigger .
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 20:54
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bladup wrote: tiompan wrote: bladup wrote: tiompan wrote: bladup wrote: tiompan wrote: bladup wrote: Sanctuary wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: Lots of these patterns (particularly spirals, zig zags and chevrons) appear in the edges of message pads when people doodle while on the phone/in meetings. I'm not sure that most of the people are taking hallucinogens at work (I could be wrong), so isn't an equally plausible explanation that these are the sort of patterns people make when decorating things? Hell of a doodle in stone eh. Can you imagine the phone bill for a three week call :-) Ha, a lot of stone tools could have been sharpened in the process of making the rock art as well, these people did like killing two birds with one stone [3 or 4 if they could], making art and at the same time stone tools sounds good to me. The creation of rock art tends to result in the dulling of points not sharpening . Rubbing tools [and various other tools] need dulling before use and rock art is made in various ways, as you well know. You mentioned sharpening . What gets found at rock art sites in those few cases where they have been excavated is lots of smashed quartz and possible hammer stones .Nothing wrong with killing two birds with one stone but it doesn't seem that likely from from what we have found at these rock art sites that have been excavated some tools would have clearly been made in the process, of course they would, it makes the time spent doing the art more worthwhile and is just common sense. Maybe the tools used were seen as "holy ". Seriously ,where are these tools ? We have found the discarded tools that did some of the engraving . "We have found the discarded tools that did some of the engraving" there of course. But they were simply used for the job then dumped at the site ,they had no other use .
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thesweetcheat 6218 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 20:57
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Yes, it is on the big side. The one's on Harold's Stones are larger though. The other thing it has against it (the cairn one) is the relative shallowness of the "cup".
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bladup 1986 posts |
Edited Dec 17, 2012, 20:58
Dec 17, 2012, 20:57
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thesweetcheat wrote: Like the fact that people like to decorate stuff and simple geometric patterns are an obvious way to do this (like the dog-tooth design around a Norman arch, or a zigzag design around the rim of an urn). Like the possibility that the motifs had particular meanings, now lost, that related to the culture/religion/landscape/favourite football team/whatever. Like the fact that designs often relate to the shape of the block being carved. None of which has to necessarily have anything to do with mushrooms. Like i said it's the mushies that may let you see but the patterns seem deep rooted to our very brains, with or without mushies, that's why you see them lots of other ways as well, it even looks like the cavemen were at it as well.
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bladup 1986 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 20:59
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tiompan wrote: bladup wrote: tiompan wrote: bladup wrote: tiompan wrote: bladup wrote: tiompan wrote: bladup wrote: Sanctuary wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: Lots of these patterns (particularly spirals, zig zags and chevrons) appear in the edges of message pads when people doodle while on the phone/in meetings. I'm not sure that most of the people are taking hallucinogens at work (I could be wrong), so isn't an equally plausible explanation that these are the sort of patterns people make when decorating things? Hell of a doodle in stone eh. Can you imagine the phone bill for a three week call :-) Ha, a lot of stone tools could have been sharpened in the process of making the rock art as well, these people did like killing two birds with one stone [3 or 4 if they could], making art and at the same time stone tools sounds good to me. The creation of rock art tends to result in the dulling of points not sharpening . Rubbing tools [and various other tools] need dulling before use and rock art is made in various ways, as you well know. You mentioned sharpening . What gets found at rock art sites in those few cases where they have been excavated is lots of smashed quartz and possible hammer stones .Nothing wrong with killing two birds with one stone but it doesn't seem that likely from from what we have found at these rock art sites that have been excavated some tools would have clearly been made in the process, of course they would, it makes the time spent doing the art more worthwhile and is just common sense. Maybe the tools used were seen as "holy ". Seriously ,where are these tools ? We have found the discarded tools that did some of the engraving . "We have found the discarded tools that did some of the engraving" there of course. But they were simply used for the job then dumped at the site ,they had no other use . How do you know this?
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Harryshill 510 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 20:59
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It's you that is out of your depth I think. You don't understand what is natural or not.
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thesweetcheat 6218 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 21:00
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Which could suggest that these patterns are so "deep rooted" in our brains that they don't need mushrooms to bring them out, couldn't it?
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Harryshill 510 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 21:00
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More surmising
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