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Neanderthals v Humans
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Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Re: Neanderthals v Humans
Oct 31, 2012, 11:40
tiompan wrote:
If they had built open air monuments the Devensian glaciation would have destroyed them unless they were in the less megalithic areas free of ice in the south and south east .
There is no reason to believe they were incapable of building stone circles but there is no reason or evidence anywhere where they were found to believe they did .


Isn’t that (that they may have been in areas free of ice) a very important point though (presumably, in a last ditch attempt to survive ice-free areas is exactly where they would have been). And no evidence of them being present is not really conclusive that they weren't there).

Aye, I’m on shaky ground with this one... was just an idea... :-)
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Neanderthals v Humans
Oct 31, 2012, 13:58
tiompan wrote:
Neanderthals were living in Britain prior to the onset of the last ice age . Latest dates for them in Europe is approx 24,000 BP but they are believed to be extinct in Britain by 30,000 BP , this may or may not have been due to the worsening climate or homo sap . If they had built open air monuments the Devensian glaciation would have destroyed them unless they were in the less megalithic areas free of ice in the south and south east .
There is no reason to believe they were incapable of building stone circles but there is no reason or evidence anywhere where they were found to believe they did .
The chronology between even accurately dated deposits and the building of a monument is not that straightforward . Most stone circles are unexcavated so much of the dating is based on association and typology .Those that have been excavated can provide dateable material that may help in more accurate dating particularly if there is a clear stratigraphic relationship between the monoliths and the interior as has been found at sites like the Clava cairns (which have stone circles ) , Temple Wood , some Aberdeenshire RSC 'S etc .
A date from the ditch at Stenness was 3100-3000 BC .


A very interesting thread, thanks all. Tiompan, could I just ask about this sentence "Neanderthals were living in Britain prior to the onset of the last ice age . Latest dates for them in Europe is approx 24,000 BP but they are believed to be extinct in Britain by 30,000 BP". I thought the oldest remains found were the Red Lady of Paviland in a cave on the Gower Peninsular - homo sapien though. Have any Neanderthal remains been found anywhere in the British Isles, if so, do you know where? Thanks!
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6218 posts

Re: Scots/Picts/Celts/Romans/Saxons/etc
Oct 31, 2012, 14:28
Well, because it made me think and it made me laugh, both of which are things I like in a good forum post.

I must admit that I hadn't really considered the Picts and the Scots to be distinct, in much the same way I wouldn't think of the Cornish/Welsh as being distinct from the Celtic people who were here before the Romans and Saxons (Sais) arrived. And then there's the question of what is "Roman" anyway, most of the legions were cobbled together from an enormously disparate group of peoples. It seems unlikely that a much larger pre-existing populace would simply disappear or move out, much more likely that they would continue much as before with different overlords (who might be more or less beneficent, who knows?). It is true that Saxons and Vikings did settle more extensively, rather than just a few elites, so the make-up of the eastern parts of Britain (especially England) has a bigger mix of those. But lowland Scotland, if anything, appears to have been extensively settled by peoples originally from Wales, so perhaps the lowland Scots are in fact Welsh? :-)
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Neanderthals v Humans
Oct 31, 2012, 16:48
tjj wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Neanderthals were living in Britain prior to the onset of the last ice age . Latest dates for them in Europe is approx 24,000 BP but they are believed to be extinct in Britain by 30,000 BP , this may or may not have been due to the worsening climate or homo sap . If they had built open air monuments the Devensian glaciation would have destroyed them unless they were in the less megalithic areas free of ice in the south and south east .
There is no reason to believe they were incapable of building stone circles but there is no reason or evidence anywhere where they were found to believe they did .
The chronology between even accurately dated deposits and the building of a monument is not that straightforward . Most stone circles are unexcavated so much of the dating is based on association and typology .Those that have been excavated can provide dateable material that may help in more accurate dating particularly if there is a clear stratigraphic relationship between the monoliths and the interior as has been found at sites like the Clava cairns (which have stone circles ) , Temple Wood , some Aberdeenshire RSC 'S etc .
A date from the ditch at Stenness was 3100-3000 BC .


A very interesting thread, thanks all. Tiompan, could I just ask about this sentence "Neanderthals were living in Britain prior to the onset of the last ice age . Latest dates for them in Europe is approx 24,000 BP but they are believed to be extinct in Britain by 30,000 BP". I thought the oldest remains found were the Red Lady of Paviland in a cave on the Gower Peninsular - homo sapien though. Have any Neanderthal remains been found anywhere in the British Isles, if so, do you know where? Thanks!


Swanscombe (wo)man is considered to have Neanderthal characteristics but is very early at 400,000 other than that there are no Neanderthal remains from Britain that I can think of , other than the teeth from the cave at Pontnewydd .Their presence is only recognised from their distinctive diagnostic Mousterian tools .
Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Re: Neanderthals v Humans
Oct 31, 2012, 18:27
Couple of nice little BBC videos here – one showing the cranial remains of Swanscombe (wo)man (a Neanderthal from 400,000 years ago) and another video of the 200,000 year-old Neanderthal remains in the Pontnewydd caves, North Wales which you mention - North Wales being the furthest west they got it seems.

Don’t think there’s evidence of them in Ireland – yet ;-)
GLADMAN
950 posts

Re: Scots/Picts/Celts/Romans/Saxons/etc
Oct 31, 2012, 18:59
thesweetcheat wrote:
Well, because it made me think and it made me laugh, both of which are things I like in a good forum post.

I must admit that I hadn't really considered the Picts and the Scots to be distinct, in much the same way I wouldn't think of the Cornish/Welsh as being distinct from the Celtic people who were here before the Romans and Saxons (Sais) arrived. And then there's the question of what is "Roman" anyway, most of the legions were cobbled together from an enormously disparate group of peoples. It seems unlikely that a much larger pre-existing populace would simply disappear or move out, much more likely that they would continue much as before with different overlords (who might be more or less beneficent, who knows?). It is true that Saxons and Vikings did settle more extensively, rather than just a few elites, so the make-up of the eastern parts of Britain (especially England) has a bigger mix of those. But lowland Scotland, if anything, appears to have been extensively settled by peoples originally from Wales, so perhaps the lowland Scots are in fact Welsh? :-)


I was under the impression that the King Lists of what was to become Scotland were fabricated in part by Hector Boece to provide legitimacy to the rule of the incomers from Antrim over the existing inhabitants (who I'd call the Picts)... although to be fair I can't recall where I read that now. Might have been Trevor-Roper, so no doubt controversial.

If that is true, in short the Picts were written out of history for political ends. apparently losing their own language in favour of gaelic. The question I ask - in my southern ignorance - is whether they resisted forcibly, decided to go with the flow and join enthusiastically to take advantage of a better standard of life (?) or reacted with a fatalistic outlook akin to the collapse of the Inca empire. However since these were people who, by all accounts, refused to submit to The Romans wouldn't the former have been more likely?
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Neanderthals v Humans
Oct 31, 2012, 20:35
tiompan wrote:
tjj wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Neanderthals were living in Britain prior to the onset of the last ice age . Latest dates for them in Europe is approx 24,000 BP but they are believed to be extinct in Britain by 30,000 BP , this may or may not have been due to the worsening climate or homo sap . If they had built open air monuments the Devensian glaciation would have destroyed them unless they were in the less megalithic areas free of ice in the south and south east .
There is no reason to believe they were incapable of building stone circles but there is no reason or evidence anywhere where they were found to believe they did .
The chronology between even accurately dated deposits and the building of a monument is not that straightforward . Most stone circles are unexcavated so much of the dating is based on association and typology .Those that have been excavated can provide dateable material that may help in more accurate dating particularly if there is a clear stratigraphic relationship between the monoliths and the interior as has been found at sites like the Clava cairns (which have stone circles ) , Temple Wood , some Aberdeenshire RSC 'S etc .
A date from the ditch at Stenness was 3100-3000 BC .


A very interesting thread, thanks all. Tiompan, could I just ask about this sentence "Neanderthals were living in Britain prior to the onset of the last ice age . Latest dates for them in Europe is approx 24,000 BP but they are believed to be extinct in Britain by 30,000 BP". I thought the oldest remains found were the Red Lady of Paviland in a cave on the Gower Peninsular - homo sapien though. Have any Neanderthal remains been found anywhere in the British Isles, if so, do you know where? Thanks!


Swanscombe (wo)man is considered to have Neanderthal characteristics but is very early at 400,000 other than that there are no Neanderthal remains from Britain that I can think of , other than the teeth from the cave at Pontnewydd .Their presence is only recognised from their distinctive diagnostic Mousterian tools .


Very helpful answer, thanks Tiompan (and LS). One thing leads to another so have just been reading about Boxgrove and 'Heidelberg' man (homo heidelbergenis). More reading needed.
tomwatts
376 posts

Re: Neanderthals v Humans
Nov 01, 2012, 07:58
I'm trying to envisage something that could precede the long barrows/stone rows of Dartmoor etc...
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6218 posts

Re: Neanderthals v Humans
Nov 01, 2012, 17:35
Something like a simple slab over a grave would be about as basic as a megalithic funerary monument could be.
Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Re: Neanderthals v Humans
Nov 01, 2012, 18:24
I’m guessing, but there were probably so few of them that something like that would be about all they’d ever aspire to. Maybe, pushing the envelope just a bit further, some simple circles of wood or stone for ‘ceremonial’ use. But as tiompan has said, anything like that would have mostly been swept away by the ice sheets and some 20,000-30,000 years of natural and human activity.
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