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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Tidying up offerings |
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moss 2897 posts |
Edited May 29, 2010, 12:27
May 29, 2010, 12:25
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This discussion could go on for ever, perhaps what we are missing out on is that humans live within a social framework, we make rules for this and that, 'belt up'(seat belts), 'tidy litter' etc.... but when it comes to religion and individual belief we get tied up with trespassing on someone elses 'feeling', offerings are'nt after all dangerous (unless of course you slip on a banana skin) but they are scattered in an indiscriminate fashion across certain sites... So Faerygirl what is your solution, to the bringing of 'stuff'? I know where you are coming from with this argument that belief has a right of expression, something I would stand by myself.. but what happens at sites is a multitude of personal beliefs. Could it be that a new way of spiritual thinking is evolving maybe, or people are being like 'sheep' and just following what everyone else is doing? For those of us who went through the 60s, a 'new age' wave of religious belief took place then and I don't think any of that has survived unless you call secularism a religion, which is in a sense what you are arguing against. Actually today I read in the news that an Ulster museum is debating whether to introduce the idea of 'creationism' into its galleries..now that is seriously worrying. ;)
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
May 29, 2010, 12:28
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Well I guess that carved stone would look fine on it's own but look worse if it was contributing to the mess at Swallowhead, that's maybe what people were thinking. You're right about some circles being depressing holes that need brightening up. Arbor Low, lordy lordy*, that's one, miserable place, money to go in and a vicious dog. His guts reverently draped over the stones would improve them no end - and maybe replicate the original purpose. ;) (* Lordy Lordy is a polytheist expression, in case you didn't know!)
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faerygirl 412 posts |
May 29, 2010, 13:00
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moss wrote: This discussion could go on for ever, perhaps what we are missing out on is that humans live within a social framework, we make rules for this and that, 'belt up'(seat belts), 'tidy litter' etc.... but when it comes to religion and individual belief we get tied up with trespassing on someone elses 'feeling', offerings are'nt after all dangerous (unless of course you slip on a banana skin) but they are scattered in an indiscriminate fashion across certain sites... So Faerygirl what is your solution, to the bringing of 'stuff'? I know where you are coming from with this argument that belief has a right of expression, something I would stand by myself.. but what happens at sites is a multitude of personal beliefs. Could it be that a new way of spiritual thinking is evolving maybe, or people are being like 'sheep' and just following what everyone else is doing? For those of us who went through the 60s, a 'new age' wave of religious belief took place then and I don't think any of that has survived unless you call secularism a religion, which is in a sense what you are arguing against. Actually today I read in the news that an Ulster museum is debating whether to introduce the idea of 'creationism' into its galleries..now that is seriously worrying. ;) Oh I dont have a solution! I just like a good argument. If everyone else on here was saying that it should all be left in place and not removed I would be there with my bin bag RIGHT NOW picking it all up ;) Only Joking (of course! what woman would argue for the sake of it???!) I just think its a shame. A little elitist to say that this persons stuff is tat when anothers is a lovely spiritual offering. I think it should apply to everything and to be honest, thats where I find I have problems too! I love to see coloured ribbons in the trees at these places and little bundles of lavender tucked into the holes at Avebury look wonderful. But it every hole was stuffed with another offering, it would look a right bloody mess! So then we are back "leave nothing" which is fine but you cant tell people not to honour something they feel they need to! Bloomin' plastic poppies all over things on rememberane sunday, fake flowers looking dog-eared and tatty all over graveyards or real flowers, long dead and also looking dreadful. Guess we just cant help ourselves...
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Paulus 769 posts |
Edited May 29, 2010, 13:28
May 29, 2010, 13:25
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Hi Faerygirl - Wot's even worse - and they've been growing at an incredible rate over the last 30 years - are these awful, noisy, bright metal objects covering the lanes and roadsides just about everywhere, parked-up, people gerrin' out, eating their damn crispy packets, plastic bottled water (organic o' course - it sez so on the tin!), choci-bars, chips - and the damn ignorant freaks who keep gerrin new ones are wanting bigger and wider roads for 'em, so they can get even closer to the megaliths. These dreadful daily offerings (you can't get rid of 'em it seems, cluttering the wilderness increasingly as laziness infests folks' legs!) seemingly keep breeding. And the truth of the matter is: the people who use these things are the people who leave all their driblets. The solution's simple: ban them - cars that is! Then, less & less crap will be left at sites cos the lazy people (those who leave the crap) would have to walk there. It'd work. Wot d' y' reckon? ;)
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
May 29, 2010, 15:44
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Resonox wrote: Sanctuary wrote: It would seem more of an unproven belief than fact that stone circles etc are religeous sites when in fact we have no idea why they were built or what they were used for on completion whatsoever, other than what we are told or personally believe. They may have no connection with religeous beliefs at all and it is really all assumption is it not based on many aspects, none of which actually prove anything! I'm not sure I get your point...I never claimed for a minute that stone circles or any such structures of a similar age are of religious significance....The Wailing Wall is though and as such should never have been used as an example (or excuse) for leaving "prayers in a physical form" at sites. I did point out as well that there is no documentation(except biased propaganda) at all of their(ie circles) purpose...although many do have or had significant and possibly important burial remains within them...though usually they have been robbed of even that evidence...I didn't claim they were graves either. Sorry Resonox, I wasn't trying to say that you were claiming that stones circles etc were of religious significance, more going with the flow of the general view it would seem that offerings are left at sites after some form of rites have been carried out believing that these sites do in fact hold a religious significance. They may well do of course but then again.....
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Resonox 604 posts |
May 29, 2010, 16:08
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tjj wrote: but to be frank I don't give a toss. Well if you did...that could be seen as spilling seed...but I think the decency laws in this country prohibit it anyway.
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Paulus 769 posts |
May 29, 2010, 16:51
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Ahem! Well - if this is the way the conversation's going... Resonox wrote: tjj wrote: but to be frank I don't give a toss. Well if you did...that could be seen as spilling seed...but I think the decency laws in this country prohibit it anyway. The sheep in northern England never seem to grass on us, so we're alreet up here! Mind you, before the notion of even getting caught for spilling such seed, we always plead Schrodinger's Cat! :)
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tjj 3606 posts |
May 29, 2010, 18:33
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Resonox wrote: tjj wrote: but to be frank I don't give a toss. Well if you did...that could be seen as spilling seed...but I think the decency laws in this country prohibit it anyway. Resonox, in an earlier post you suggested that I may have misused or misquoted your words - which I certainly had not intended to do. Surely by quoting the final half dozen words of my previous post (which was nothing if not reasonable) to have a jibe at my expense is doing the same thing. "I don't give toss" is a colloquialism of course and was not meant to refer to the act of masturbation - though should I choose such an activity in the open air it is unlikely that I would spill any seed ... as I am female and I don't think our anatomy works that way.
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Creyr 114 posts |
May 29, 2010, 19:04
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[quote="Sweep"] It seems to me the most productive way forward would be to join a few neo-pagan discussion forums and calmly and rationally suggest that biodegradable offerings would be much preferable to the kinds of things being left now. Ideas take root if presented in a congenial way and with frequency. This may not work, but I think it's worth a try, and I'm intending to do it. Those of us with a deep antipathy to anything new age, neo-pagan or whatever will need to proceed with caution, or hang around at the back. :D Sweep - I think this is an excellent way forward and I really hope you go for it. I should probably hang around at the back....not that I have an antipathy for non-consensual beliefs or anything. What I omitted in my original post was that the person who asked me to go and clear the stuff up in the first place did so because he'd been talking to the tree and he said it told him it wasn't very happy being so adorned. Personally I dont know about how the tree felt, but I'm pretty sure quite alot of the non-biodegradable stuff left as offerings is harmful to wildlife and farm animals. My view is that the important part of the offering is what occurs in the individual who makes the offering, not so much what occurs to the offering once it is made. (That doesnt mean I think its ok for offerings to end up as landfill. I dont think its ok for anything to end up as landfill actually, but thats something im still working on...)
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
May 29, 2010, 20:57
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Paulus wrote: Hi Faerygirl - Wot's even worse - and they've been growing at an incredible rate over the last 30 years - are these awful, noisy, bright metal objects covering the lanes and roadsides just about everywhere, parked-up, people gerrin' out, eating their damn crispy packets, plastic bottled water (organic o' course - it sez so on the tin!), choci-bars, chips - and the damn ignorant freaks who keep gerrin new ones are wanting bigger and wider roads for 'em, so they can get even closer to the megaliths. These dreadful daily offerings (you can't get rid of 'em it seems, cluttering the wilderness increasingly as laziness infests folks' legs!) seemingly keep breeding. And the truth of the matter is: the people who use these things are the people who leave all their driblets. The solution's simple: ban them - cars that is! Then, less & less crap will be left at sites cos the lazy people (those who leave the crap) would have to walk there. It'd work. Wot d' y' reckon? ;) Oh yeah, a man after my own heart. Add this suggestion to Nigel's "leave nothing" policy and you have summed up my own opinion in a nutshell.
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