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Tidying up offerings
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nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 28, 2010, 19:31
"I would never get out of bed if I lived by your saying..."

Yes I appreciate that in normal life but it wasn't my saying really, I was paraphrasing what all the international conservation conventions say:
if somewhere is going to be changed it had better be based on a fair degree of certainty that it moves it closer to it's essence and original intention and it had better involve a broad consensus.

People that want to leave stuff at sites worry me as they are saying they need changing to some previous use and they know what it was or they want to use them for their own purposes or in accordance with their own beliefs and if people object people are unreasonable or wrong respectively. I don't think they're right.
faerygirl
412 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 28, 2010, 19:39
Oh and I had a thought. What about the wailing wall? Its stuffed to bursting point with prayersa dn offering and scraps of paper. Is it different because its a religion still in practice? Would it be different if it was in Britain and watched over by an angry farmer?
Rhiannon
5290 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 28, 2010, 20:02
Ah but the wailing wall has a direct link with Judaism surely. Whereas the link between a stone circle and a modern 'offering'-leaver is tenuous at most, surely? A true pagan you'd think would want to commune with Nature, and could do that anywhere, not at megalithic sites at which they know nothing about the motivations of the original constructors. Just a thought.
Resonox
604 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 29, 2010, 06:40
faerygirl wrote:
Oh and I had a thought. What about the wailing wall? Its stuffed to bursting point with prayersa dn offering and scraps of paper. Is it different because its a religion still in practice? Would it be different if it was in Britain and watched over by an angry farmer?
Rhiannon's reply is roughly what mine would be to that point....your own point that "it is a religion still in practice".. justifies The Wailing Wall being used as it is...
As no-one really knows the exact religion of the people who put stones where they are, so the leaving of offerings is for peoples' own benefits(I daresay there are people who go to modern churches and make a show of putting a generous wad in the collection plate, as if to say, "My offering is bigger than yours!"..strikes me as being like leaving a physical offering by a site ..pointless..if you consider the site spiritual)...and to repeat the oft-made point, these days people are just adapting the sites for their own purposes...even to the extent of laying claims to be following an ancient religion of which there is no evidence for. Even the Druids came long after the erection of many of these sites, and perhaps the pre-romanic druids did use them for their own benefit(much as the church did after them)..but again as to this we only have romanic propaganda against the druids as any kind of evidence...so it isn't an accurate portrayal.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Edited May 29, 2010, 07:17
Re: Tidying up offerings
May 29, 2010, 07:07
The Burra Charter underpins the "official" view of this issue -

3.2 Changes to a place should not distort the physical or other evidence it provides, nor be based on conjecture.

and the ASLaN Charter is the most prominent "unofficial" view of the issue (and has long been good enough for most people, including most pagans!) -

Please take care when visiting sacred sites to leave them as the next visitor would like to find them.

It always defeats me trying to understand how anyone can think leaving their own mark at a place after they leave and have gone home for a bacon sandwich can possibly be seen as fair on everyone else that comes along!
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited May 29, 2010, 07:44
Re: Tidying up offerings
May 29, 2010, 07:41
faerygirl wrote:
nigelswift wrote:
faerygirl wrote:

I think saying that removing things to "restore" it to how it was intended is quite an assumption as we dont have a clue what these things are for


If in doubt do nowt.


Im always in doubt. Why an I here? WHere am I going? What will happen next? What day is it?

I would never get out of bed if I lived by your saying...


Hah! My father's advice to me when I left home for the big city, aged nearly 18, was "If in doubt, don't do it". There are times I wish I had followed that advice or at least followed my first intuition about certain people and situations.

I don't describe myself as a pagan (perhaps a pantheist) though sometimes feel like making a small 'offering' back to the earth, especially at summer's end. When I do it is always biodegradable fruit (for the birds to consume) and left somewhere where no one will notice it. Can't see anything wrong with doing that ... each to their own conscience, so long as it does no harm to the environment.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 29, 2010, 08:37
Resonox wrote:
faerygirl wrote:
Oh and I had a thought. What about the wailing wall? Its stuffed to bursting point with prayersa dn offering and scraps of paper. Is it different because its a religion still in practice? Would it be different if it was in Britain and watched over by an angry farmer?
Rhiannon's reply is roughly what mine would be to that point....your own point that "it is a religion still in practice".. justifies The Wailing Wall being used as it is...
As no-one really knows the exact religion of the people who put stones where they are, so the leaving of offerings is for peoples' own benefits(I daresay there are people who go to modern churches and make a show of putting a generous wad in the collection plate, as if to say, "My offering is bigger than yours!"..strikes me as being like leaving a physical offering by a site ..pointless..if you consider the site spiritual)...and to repeat the oft-made point, these days people are just adapting the sites for their own purposes...even to the extent of laying claims to be following an ancient religion of which there is no evidence for. Even the Druids came long after the erection of many of these sites, and perhaps the pre-romanic druids did use them for their own benefit(much as the church did after them)..but again as to this we only have romanic propaganda against the druids as any kind of evidence...so it isn't an accurate portrayal.



It would seem more of an unproven belief than fact that stone circles etc are religeous sites when in fact we have no idea why they were built or what they were used for on completion whatsoever, other than what we are told or personally believe. They may have no connection with religeous beliefs at all and it is really all assumption is it not based on many aspects, none of which actually prove anything!
faerygirl
412 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 29, 2010, 09:33
Sanctuary wrote:
Resonox wrote:
faerygirl wrote:
Oh and I had a thought. What about the wailing wall? Its stuffed to bursting point with prayersa dn offering and scraps of paper. Is it different because its a religion still in practice? Would it be different if it was in Britain and watched over by an angry farmer?
Rhiannon's reply is roughly what mine would be to that point....your own point that "it is a religion still in practice".. justifies The Wailing Wall being used as it is...
As no-one really knows the exact religion of the people who put stones where they are, so the leaving of offerings is for peoples' own benefits(I daresay there are people who go to modern churches and make a show of putting a generous wad in the collection plate, as if to say, "My offering is bigger than yours!"..strikes me as being like leaving a physical offering by a site ..pointless..if you consider the site spiritual)...and to repeat the oft-made point, these days people are just adapting the sites for their own purposes...even to the extent of laying claims to be following an ancient religion of which there is no evidence for. Even the Druids came long after the erection of many of these sites, and perhaps the pre-romanic druids did use them for their own benefit(much as the church did after them)..but again as to this we only have romanic propaganda against the druids as any kind of evidence...so it isn't an accurate portrayal.



It would seem more of an unproven belief than fact that stone circles etc are religeous sites when in fact we have no idea why they were built or what they were used for on completion whatsoever, other than what we are told or personally believe. They may have no connection with religeous beliefs at all and it is really all assumption is it not based on many aspects, none of which actually prove anything!


Again this kinda supports bith sides of the argument. Everyone saying "leave it as it was supposed to be" and "respect the site" when for all we know it was an elaborate dump site/ a grave yard for the poor/ a cattle shed/ a temple/ a giant clock! I don't leave anything apart from the fading sound of drums and a didgeridoo, but I get more upset with kendle mint cake wrappers (I have seen these dropped by middle aged hikers with NO respect for the place or the fact I was trying to get a good photo!) and cigerette butts (again, a visiting family with their kids climbing all over the stones, their dog taking a dump in the middle and the dad stubbing the cigerette out on the stone and leaving it there). I pick up litter at these places, but if something has been left I dont touch it because everyone gets to have their own view on these things and I dont feel I have the authority to tell someone their belief is stupid.
Resonox
604 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 29, 2010, 09:33
Sanctuary wrote:



It would seem more of an unproven belief than fact that stone circles etc are religeous sites when in fact we have no idea why they were built or what they were used for on completion whatsoever, other than what we are told or personally believe. They may have no connection with religeous beliefs at all and it is really all assumption is it not based on many aspects, none of which actually prove anything!


I'm not sure I get your point...I never claimed for a minute that stone circles or any such structures of a similar age are of religious significance....The Wailing Wall is though and as such should never have been used as an example (or excuse) for leaving "prayers in a physical form" at sites.
I did point out as well that there is no documentation(except biased propaganda) at all of their(ie circles) purpose...although many do have or had significant and possibly important burial remains within them...though usually they have been robbed of even that evidence...I didn't claim they were graves either.
Resonox
604 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 29, 2010, 09:39
faerygirl wrote:
I dont feel I have the authority to tell someone their belief is stupid.

I'm trying to find where I actually made the claim that I do.
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