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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Tidying up offerings |
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goffik 3926 posts |
Jun 16, 2010, 17:17
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I often wonder as well, Nigel, if the location of the site is a factor. While I've seen tons of crap left as offerings over the years, I've never actually seen anyone leaving it. What I mean is, is it more likely to happen in places where the litterer can't be seen, or there aren't a constant stream of people? I wonder how tolerant people would be if, for example, at Avebury, all of the cack at Swallowhead Spring was left in a "respectful" heap right next to where the Obelisk stood, or "ceremonially" chucked over the Cove stones. I can't imagine it'd stay there too long. G x
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Resonox 604 posts |
Jun 16, 2010, 17:34
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faerygirl wrote: I thought the Wailing Wall was built on top of an older existing wall by King Herod. The older wall being of an earlier religion. In much the same way as building churches on top of stone circles, therefore meaning it has been adopted into a newer religion as seen by modern day "pagans" at stone circles. I've honestly never heard that about The Wailing wall...Would anyone know the (approximate) date of it's erection and which Herod was involved...as there appears to have been more than one?...I've never thought about it before, but it is quite logical that Judaism has gone through several changes since it's inception as a religion...so sacred sites would have been accordingly "upgraded".
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Edited Jun 16, 2010, 21:24
Jun 16, 2010, 21:14
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goffik wrote: I wonder how tolerant people would be if, for example, at Avebury, all of the cack at Swallowhead Spring was left in a "respectful" heap right next to where the Obelisk stood, or "ceremonially" chucked over the Cove stones. I can't imagine it'd stay there too long.G x 10 seconds.
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tjj 3606 posts |
Jun 18, 2010, 20:37
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Branwen wrote: But the treatment is the same in either case, just telling people no isn't going to work if it's a deep seated psychological urge, but working with the person to identify ways to fill or supress the urge without doing the harm does tend to work. I found this link while doing some internet browsing on another subject. It is mainly about wells and touches on the 'why' people leave offerings at wells. Wells do seem to be the biggest draw to people leaving offerings and as the article points out the psychology seems to be 'You get nowt for nowt'. http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/holywell.htm I'm not condoning just trying for an insight.
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Branwen 824 posts |
Jun 18, 2010, 21:24
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Wells are the biggest draw because there is at least a custom going back into antiquity of using sympathetic magic and the power of healing afforded by sacred wells and the nearby sacred trees. The original sentiment was certainly not one of you got nowt for nowt, but rather that you got nowt without following the proper method. In a time where giving a gift that could be termed a "possession" to the otherworldly beings that were thought to be mankind's helpers, you DID get nowt for nowt in some cases. (Yes, thats what the Potter elf who is given the sock was based on, most of it has origins in folore of one country or another). It's an ancient custom bastardised by modern "pay for salvation" and "capitlist bargaining" type thinking. Not to mention the bastardisation of the beliefs behind such customs by mixing them with other cultures and time periods. The whole "the spirits will tell you if you are doing it right or not" would seem to be a get out clause being trumped out as an excuse.
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited Jun 18, 2010, 21:51
Jun 18, 2010, 21:50
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Branwen wrote: Wells are the biggest draw because there is at least a custom going back into antiquity of using sympathetic magic and the power of healing afforded by sacred wells and the nearby sacred trees. The original sentiment was certainly not one of you got nowt for nowt, but rather that you got nowt without following the proper method. In a time where giving a gift that could be termed a "possession" to the otherworldly beings that were thought to be mankind's helpers, you DID get nowt for nowt in some cases. (Yes, thats what the Potter elf who is given the sock was based on, most of it has origins in folore of one country or another). It's an ancient custom bastardised by modern "pay for salvation" and "capitlist bargaining" type thinking. Not to mention the bastardisation of the beliefs behind such customs by mixing them with other cultures and time periods. The whole "the spirits will tell you if you are doing it right or not" would seem to be a get out clause being trumped out as an excuse. I think your penultimate sentence sums up the modern day problem Branwen. The author of the article, Rowan, writes ... Nowt is got for nowt, as we say in Yorkshire, and it went without saying that one paid for one's renewed health by leaving an offering for the spirit of the well or spring. Today there is a tendency again to throw a few coins into the water (a practice which had been very common in Roman times), though traditionally one left either a piece of clothing tied to a nearby tree or some other evidence of the cure anticipated. The tying of rags is the most common of these practices and is still in widespread use today, such wells being generally known as "rag" or "cloutie" wells, the idea being that as the rag rotted so the disease or illness withered until it had gone - so no instant cures were presumably expected. This presupposes that the rag left as a gift was of an organic, ie biodegradeable, substance, typically wool, linen or cotton. A visit to many sites today will reveal that modern understanding of this ancient practice leaves much to be desired as you can find scraps of nylon lace or string, polythene, even magnetic recording tape and other such synthetic (and therefore non-degradeable) substances, tied to branches. According to the old lore, the diseases represented by these offerings would take a long time, if not a lifetime(!) to cure. On a visit to Madron Well in Penwith several years ago, I found a Berlei bra draped across several branches - persumably some sort of fertility spell. On a later visit last summer it had gone. Perhaps if "Madron" does indeed commemorate the "Mother" (as has been suggested by more than one writer) the donor had had sextuplets and come back to remove it! I wish you wellness from your 'flu (no irony intended).
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Branwen 824 posts |
Jun 18, 2010, 22:07
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LOL Once again in that article they suppose the rag is an offering - which leads to bigger the better mentality. It's not, it's sympathetic magic. As it degrades away to nothing, so too does the illness disappear. You'de be cured or gain your wish quicker if you left a tiny thread that would degrade quickly.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Jun 19, 2010, 13:30
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http://archives.starbulletin.com/2007/04/20/news/story09.html (So far as I'm aware cooked pigs (or maybe raw hedgehogs) are the only things for which there is any archaeological evidence suggesting they are appropriate for leaving as offerings at British megalithic monuments.....)
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StoneGloves 1149 posts |
Jun 19, 2010, 13:51
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and deformed children ... Never mind asking for a citation - just go and find a crop circle! Plenty on the 'net
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Jun 19, 2010, 14:15
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Been there (though admittedly slightly inebriated, with Jimit). I'd be less skeptical if, having come all the way from the stars, they'd mastered square vortices. I may have asked you this before but have forgotten the answer. Why a Meadow Brown when a Wall would be so much more appropriate?
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