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revnox 92 posts |
Jun 04, 2010, 21:49
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Forget it. seems like I have put a block on this. Sorry! Please resume.
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BuckyE 468 posts |
Jun 05, 2010, 05:05
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Hasn't there been discussion here about how many of the UK sites have been destroyed by agriculture, Church practices, etc.? This destruction went on for centuries before there even WAS an America, so don't get your knickers in a twist about us! I understand perfectly your desire to preserve the sites for many reasons, including spiritual ones. And sympathize completely. As a small bit of proof of my comradeship, I wonder how many other Americans than Loie and myself have visited with the members of this forum, and attended a megameet? So please believe that it is with respect and commiseration that I post here. There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about what I propose. Paulus says "...american ways will infect everywhere in its dangerous notions of land ownership and privatization." I perfectly well agree. But, it's been precisely the concept of allowing the sites to be privately owned--and concomitantly mismanaged--that has resulted in their rampant destruction and disrespect of them. And as I've said before, we have exactly the same problems here with Native American sites. No one knows how much destruction has been allowed by having our sites in private hands, unguarded. Other than that it's certainly been immense. At that rate, it's a truism that archaeological sites are being plundered and destroyed all over the world. This is just a result of there being more and more people who can get to them. Most of the people respect the sites well enough to not trash them, but it only takes a few do do the damage. And there are more of those few all the time. That's not going to change. So long as any bunch of Yahoos--of whatever nationality--are allowed to piss in, climb on, spray paint, knock over, plow under, litter, leave crappy offerings in and generally do whatever they like for free at the sites, well, that's what's going to happen. Sorry, but that's been the fate of the sites for millennia. It's amazing any remain at all. How are the few that have managed to survive going to be protected against this Yahoo behavior? I ask very seriously.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Edited Jun 05, 2010, 06:19
Jun 05, 2010, 05:29
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How are the few that have managed to survive going to be protected against this Yahoo behavior? I ask very seriously. See my other reply Bucky. Random Yahoos of the paint-splattering variety are rare, they are pretty much impossible to control (other than with guard towers and machine guns) but the damage they do is very small per year in total and the measures that would be needed to stop them would rob sites of the essence that makes them precious. The big losses are through farming (farmers plough 3 inches per year off a barrow so in forty years their sons have a nice flat field - try controlling that!) and quarrying (the quarry companies are in bed with the govt.) and road building (ditto) and (in a much more subtle and unnoticed fashion) metal detecting (blessed, inexplicably, by the govt.) and general development (where the law says yes you can almost certainly destroy stuff if you do a survey of it). The Mod Ant type stuff is mostly formally protected if it's upstanding tho' not enough if it ain't. There are 1 million archaeological sites in England alone, we're losing them fast but not to Yahoos. BTW as I understand the States protection extends ONLY to Federal Land. If you have a Native American site on your private land you can quarry it for stuff to put on EBay. That's bad innit? Oh no, hang on, that's Britain as well. Except here we also give you a £3.3 million reward for finding the REALLY good stuff, that belongs to us already!
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Resonox 604 posts |
Jun 05, 2010, 06:34
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revnox wrote: revnox wrote: Resonox wrote: revnox wrote: You never answered Resonox, can I enquire why? Double check the posts. Sorry can not find it? Still cannot find it? Which makes it my problem..how????
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revnox 92 posts |
Jun 05, 2010, 09:47
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Resonox wrote: revnox wrote: revnox wrote: Resonox wrote: revnox wrote: You never answered Resonox, can I enquire why? Double check the posts. Sorry can not find it? Still cannot find it? Which makes it my problem..how???? O.k fine, I don't think I have been rude? maybe a bit insistent but you were quite vehement in fact confrontational about these points I answered at your request. I thought the courteous approach would be either to post contradictions or concede points, not you.....oh no you accuse me of being a "flamer" whatever that is?
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Resonox 604 posts |
Jun 05, 2010, 11:26
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All Americans , without exception, that I have taken to any ancient site...have been nothing short of reverential to the site....whether it is as old as Cissbury...or as "modern" as the Box Hill Napoleonic fort...as well as being the most litter aware people I have ever had the privilege to act as a "tourist guide" for. I won't get into the defence or attack on Capitalism....but guests of mine are always amazed that there are incredible historic sites and museums in this country which you can visit and touch without paying a penny(I know there are also some which cost a fortune to get within 50 yards of) and are always willing to put into a voluntary collection box(when available) without prompting to contribute to any upkeep. The thought of daubing with paint or peeing up against these sites would be alien, if not abhorrent to Americans.
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revnox 92 posts |
Jun 05, 2010, 12:10
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"The thought of daubing with paint or peeing up against these sites would be alien, if not abhorrent to Americans." I am suprised at that! Bit of a sweeping statement? peeing on? I thought that was a seperate thread and issue?
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BuckyE 468 posts |
Jun 05, 2010, 14:30
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nigelswift wrote: How are the few that have managed to survive going to be protected against this Yahoo behavior? I ask very seriously. BTW as I understand the States protection extends ONLY to Federal Land. If you have a Native American site on your private land you can quarry it for stuff to put on EBay. That's bad innit? Oh no, hang on, that's Britain as well. Except here we also give you a £3.3 million reward for finding the REALLY good stuff, that belongs to us already! There are a mishmosh of laws. Yes, Federal protection applies only to Federal lands and Native reservations. But there are many states with protection laws that apply to private lands. What kind of enforcement is actually applied I don't know. I assume little, but not none. And thanks to all who have replied with kind words. I apologize for thread hijacking! So here's a warning: if I've highjacked, read no further. This will be my last little rant. To me, the problems of protection, whether from random Yahoos, hardworking farmers, big business or even government seem to be to be all of a piece, albeit--as you point out--on a spectrum of damage from probably inconsequential to disastrous. So while it may seem to be one thing to be gracious and respect the freedoms of offerers, or those who wish the sites to be untrammeled and natural; and another to protest governments running roads through them, to me the "crimes" are basically the same thing. It's a question of the thin end of the wedge. Where is the universally agreeable line between photography, drumming, (eventually dead) flowers, (rotting) fruit, tea lights, dolls' heads, litter, elimination, farming, protesters' purple spray paint, Banksy, much needed transportation systems, etc. etc. Isn't that what this thread is about? Where's "the" line? All I'm saying is that in true fairness to all, there really isn't one. And that the attempt to draw it is the red herring that leads inexorably from one to the next. Quite likely I seem like Alexander and the knot. And quite likely my own feelings that all modern views about the purposes or nature of the old stones are modern impositions leads me to be able to be crass about those views and therefore irritating. So here's the end to it! Thank you all for being so nice.
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faerygirl 412 posts |
Jun 05, 2010, 15:28
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revnox wrote: "Christianity was forced on thousands and thousands of people the world over, not many of them over-the-moon about it either. But when its join us or get burned, most people suddenly find light in Jesus..." I think we can safely say most formal religions and ideologies have been responsible for rather atrocious impositions. In fact is this not what we are discussing in the thread? Impositions whether they be ideological, religious or other wise and an individuals right to freedom of choice. Ah yes, the freedom of choice. Tell that to the South american, Australians, Europeans and Africans who were allowed their freedom to remain "Pagan" Burning of "witches" (or anyone who was seen enjoying nature rather than going to church) Destroying of native "idols" and temples Building churches on British SCs/ Temples all over the world (although the Muslims did a huge amount of this too, but lets not forget that Christianity and Islam are the same religion for most of their writings and prophets) lovely freedom of choice...
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revnox 92 posts |
Jun 05, 2010, 16:30
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faerygirl wrote: revnox wrote: "Christianity was forced on thousands and thousands of people the world over, not many of them over-the-moon about it either. But when its join us or get burned, most people suddenly find light in Jesus..." I think we can safely say most formal religions and ideologies have been responsible for rather atrocious impositions. In fact is this not what we are discussing in the thread? Impositions whether they be ideological, religious or other wise and an individuals right to freedom of choice. Ah yes, the freedom of choice. Tell that to the South american, Australians, Europeans and Africans who were allowed their freedom to remain "Pagan" Burning of "witches" (or anyone who was seen enjoying nature rather than going to church) Destroying of native "idols" and temples Building churches on British SCs/ Temples all over the world (although the Muslims did a huge amount of this too, but lets not forget that Christianity and Islam are the same religion for most of their writings and prophets) lovely freedom of choice... I think you are a little confused, Australians and Africans Pagan? burning of witches exclusively Christian, no way the indigenous people of Australia dealt very harshly with witches (or those they believed to have used witch craft as do many Africans still to this day. your analysis seems very naive. the destruction of native idols and temples goes on to this day all over the world by most religions if not all! As for saying that Muslims and Christians are the same this is downright silly! Muslims , Christians and Jews are people of the book meaning they are Abrahamic religions and sorry their idea of prophetic lineage is very different as is their writings. freedom of choice I applaud but lets also choose reality not some faery tale regarding pre-christian noble savages.
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