Pilgrim
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Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 23, 2009, 23:18
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Pete G wrote: have you read the book then?
I have seen a lot of recreations of stone dragging, pushing, levering etc.
all done with relatively small stones.
I'd like to see a group haul a 42 ton sarsen up a hill!
PeteH
Hi Pete,
as one of a number of people who dragged a 11 or 15 ton stone up a 1:11 slope for The National Geographic channel, I'd say that the feat is eminently do-able; it's just a matter of extrapolation.
Peace
Pilgrim
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Pete G
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Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 00:16
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I'm not saying it Can't be done but rather than starting with small bluestones I'd like to see an attempt at a stone the size of the largest at Stonehenge being dragged up something like the escarpment to Salisbury plain.
Has anyone actualy Read Brians book?
Pete
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Pete G
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Edited Jun 24, 2009, 00:17
Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 00:17
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weren't Both those stone under glaciation at some point?
PeteG
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moss
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Edited Jun 24, 2009, 06:29
Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 06:26
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I have'nt read the book, but do have in my possession Brian John's earlier book on Pembrokeshire (1976) in which a page and a quarter gives the Stonehenge glaciation theory, and I don't believe he's changed his very 'fixed' notion from then! Try reading Castleden's 'The Making of Stonehenge' for a measured overview of the theories...
Wainwright and Darvill argue the stones are transported, and I'm with them. One of the first things that hit you about the landscape round the Preseli mountains is the striking outcrop of Carn Meyn, also Foel Drygarn with its beautifully fissured vertical stones - almost made for standing stones...
Subjectively if you were to sit by one of those naturally shaped carns/longbarrows that dot the landscape round Carn Meyn you would understand 'why' prehistoric people could even contemplate the moving of such stones, Stonehenge is one sacred landscape, but this Welsh site is definitely another. The mechanical act of moving stones is the one most argued theory on this board but from a purely female view, its all down hill from the mountain till you reach that marvellous wetland estuary of the Cleddau rivers and Blacklands Mill(which is often mentioned as the place they took the stones from) from thence you float the stones round up to that other great estuary - the Severn....
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tiompan
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Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 08:24
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Pete G wrote: weren't Both those stone under glaciation at some point?
PeteG
Old Keig area is considered to have been relatively glaciation free .
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tiompan
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Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 08:53
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Pete G wrote: I'm not saying it Can't be done but rather than starting with small bluestones I'd like to see an attempt at a stone the size of the largest at Stonehenge being dragged up something like the escarpment to Salisbury plain.
Has anyone actualy Read Brians book?
Pete
I havn't , and do have some sympathy with the hypothesis . Builders are likely to be opportunistic and as Thorpe and Williams-Thorpe suggest most British stone circles appear to have been constructed from local materials either quarried or glacially transported but there is plenty evidence to show that worldwide in non glaciated areas ,much bigger stones than the bluestones were moved great distances and uphill . In Britain the possibility of glaciated erratics makes it more difficult to prove that transport except in in cases where there was no glaciation e.g. Old Keig .
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Pete G
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Edited Jun 24, 2009, 09:27
Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 09:25
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I've read Castleden's book.
Wainwright & Darvil are not archaeologists so in my opinion are not qualified to comment on glaciation. They can provide no evidence for the stones being moved manualy.
I suggest you read the book so you can get up to date on Brians latest findings.
PeteG
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goffik
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Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 09:44
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I've got a really interesting book - published in Norwegian in 1957, and translated into English in 1958 - about Easter Island.
I need to re-read it, but from memory it seems to focus largely - as well, obviously, as the "why"s and "wherefore"s - on the "how"s!
The author spent a lot of time with the people of the island, who maintain (at the time of writing, at least) strong links with their heritage - namely the creation, transportation and erection of the enormous stone heads.
There are a lot of colour photos interspersed throughout, and a lot of them are concerned with the pulling (ropes and rollers) and erection (levers and platforms).
A part I remember is that it took team of 12 people 18 days to erect one of the heads from ground level onto a platform. This was done using levers, as per the Stonehengineers experiments, and platforms, of a sort (the "platforms" in this case were made from piling smaller stones beneath the raised head, then lowering it, readjusting the levers, lifting, piling stones, lowering, and so on). When the head was raised sufficiently, they were gradually removed from the front end so it became a slope that the head slowly lowered down until it was upright. It seems a long time to my (fairly) modern mind, but then I guess there may have been more people involved, and maybe erecting more than one head at a time. Maybe. So it may have taken a lot less time, or there may have been more work done in that timespan.
The author wrote that the people had continued the traditions of transporting large objects pretty well unchanged from their ancestors. We all know it's possible.
It's good to get all these theories into the mixing pot, but as none of us can remember the Neolithic times particularly well, then one scientifically and archaeologically provable theory is as good as another! ;)
To my mind, it's perfectly feasible that the bluestones were transported all the way from Wales. We know nothing of the reasons if this were the case, but if it IS the case, then there must have been some damn good reason for it! :)
G x
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nigelswift
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Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 10:19
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"We all know it's possible."
Too true Goff and the people that witnessed a stone vastly larger than a bluestone being pulled very easily up hill at Foamhenge know it's not even very difficult!
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Pete G
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Re: The Blue Stone Enigma
Jun 24, 2009, 10:35
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seems to be a lot of people here that Know the stones were not moved by glaciation without having read the book.
PeteG
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