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caergog 393 posts |
Nov 21, 2001, 23:41
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one time a couple of years back when i was in inverness i went to visit the boarstone in its new house ( it used to be near by where i grew up but was moved due to weather damage) any way I was sure i could see little lines on it that looked like ogam but as i don't know an awful lot about ogham i dismissed this as my imagination as i would have thought some one else was bound to have noticed this if i had. Sometime later i read something in the local paper about another stone apparently having ogam on it but I never heard any more about this. my personal feelings about the picts is that who ever they were (pict just being a roman term) I think they existed long before what is generally accepted I can't really explain this except that they were obviously well established by the time the romans noticed them and also must have been pretty good fighters since the romans couldn't beat them. My personal belief is they probably originated from eastern europe/russia (I think this is stated some where) came round the top and settled in northern scotland a very very long time ago. As is well documented the celts ( again another very dubious term originateing from the greeks) are thought to have eastern european connections too. My feeling is 'picts' and 'celts'could well have originated from the same people and just gone off in different directions breeding and learning along the way. genetics would be an interesting tool for this purpose but due to alot of later interbreeding it would probably be quite confusing. I know thats probably crap too now but i need to be shown why it is crap as for some reason i feel this in my bones, it has probably built up over the years from reading a bit here and there and making too many connections ! love caroline
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Nov 22, 2001, 09:03
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I will duck below my desk when I say I have to agree with you.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Nov 22, 2001, 09:14
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I was always brought up to think of 'celts' and 'picts' being on and the same. As you say, greek derived word vs roman word. I now have to think differently and I do wonder about the roots of the picts. As we know anyone west of the Rhine was a celt, but what were the Picts? They were the hard bastards that the romans could not beat, but what else do we know? They were converted to Christianity and for a while kept their own identity via their art. The dominance of the female lineage would indicate a Mother worshiping pagan society, but would you expect the vanity based items (mirror & comb) to be attributed to the Mother? I certainly would not. There are a few Z & V rod Christian stones such as the one at Elgin, Morayshire. Anyone know any others?
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caergog 393 posts |
Nov 22, 2001, 21:15
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I have a little book 'the pictish trail, a travellers guide to the old pictish kingdoms' by anthony jackson The Orkney press 1989. i bought it in inverness about 1994 and although only small it is very informative and has a list of most known sites of stones class and symbols. When i get a chance i shall look to see what i can find about the z,v and cross stones but i am juat about to head out for a pint and will do it later. love carolinexx Ps i don't see why a mother culture couldn't have combs and mirrors most of them do today there is a difference between vanity and having self respect, plus if the picts were painted they would need to see where to put the paint !
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woodhouse 38 posts |
Nov 22, 2001, 21:52
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Lucky me...I was in edinburgh today and went to the Museum of scotland ( AKA what was once the museum of antiquities)....for the princely sum of nothing, joe public can wander through the most beautiful museum and dwell for a whilst amonst the pictish parts..which are very well organised with info amidst some commissioned stone and sculpted art. There were very few fibs on display. Just to look at the pictish silver objects ( not the celtic ones!) speaks volumes...look out for the zed rod Norrie Law earrings..gawk. The race of minds that made these things were fired with imagination and artful skill. Too many other stunning things to mention. ( oops except the woven hood/shawl from St Andrews around 800Ad...ultra smart garment) Yep I have read bits about the origins which agree with the celt / pict origin and split ideas. One thing about the picts seems to be that they were adept with languages....pict, latin, greek etc....even evidence of use of Phoenician script. But when it came to Ogham my guess was that it wasnt really their major suit......first of all to folks who could carve knots in stone..it was pretty crude...second it doesnt transliterate very well...hence maybe why where there is ogham on pictish stone the letters are gibberish...as we dont know the language they were transliterating from. heres to free museums and a curse on those who nicked pict parts in the past. W
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gferg 54 posts |
Nov 22, 2001, 21:55
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What gets to me about z + v rods is that nearly all the other common carvings are of phsical objects so why these two metaaphysic sigils........ Personally I like the idea of them as surveyors tools the v being a groma (tool for setting out - which in the Etruscan tradition one used after finding the local omphalos.....and also used in boundary disputes.........I think the groma stuff is in some Devereaux) The z being the theaodolite arrangement of plumb bobs from a t or cross piece on the end of a staff. brian
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gferg 54 posts |
Nov 22, 2001, 21:59
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Celts were notoriously vain, clean shaven (and invented soap!) plus mounted cavalry in particular are often reffered to as using mirrors in signaling...... every 'respectable' 'dude' should have one. brian
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Nov 23, 2001, 08:44
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The Phonaecian link really doesn't surprise me at all. I was talking in an earlier thread about this link to Ireland. And three cheers for free museums !!! Hurrah !!
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Martin 401 posts |
Nov 23, 2001, 11:16
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Hey Fourwinds, I know of lots n lots of V and Z rod stones (and have visited a fair few). There are a couple of great books on the subject which I'll try n post later on. As far as Z rod meanings go I read in one of Elizabeth Sutherlands books that it may represent a broken arrow and protection after death (at least that's what I tell folk when they ask about one of my Pictish tattoos- a serpent and Z rod). We don't seem to know an awful lot about the Painted Ones (as the Romans dubbed us)- aye but they were a bunch of hard buggers;) Martin the Pict (at least that what the sticker on my car says!)
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Martin 401 posts |
Nov 25, 2001, 16:01
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The Picts were actually a Celtic tribe- v basically a collection of warrior Celtic tribes first documented in 297 by the Romans. They remained until 840 until defeated by Kenneth Mac Alpin and Pictland became Scotland. The V rod (with crescent) appears on 59 stones. The Z rod (with double disc) on 49 stones, serpent and Z rod on 10 and Z rod and 'notched rectangle' on 9 stones. A good place to start book-wise would be 'The Pictish Giude' by Elizabeth Sutherland which has a brief intro and then lots of routes round Scotland. The best Pictish book I've read (in fact one of the best book on any subject) is 'In Search of the Picts' again by Elizabeth Sutherland. Then there is the mighty two volume tome the ECMS (Early Christain Monuments of Scotland) in its loverly dark green box- yum ;)
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