woodhouse
|
zed rods
Nov 20, 2001, 00:10
|
Just read some stuff by George Bain..he of the 1950's studies of celtic art forms....he doesnt mince his words either. He reckons St Columba had a mission to rub out any non Rome sources of Christianity under the banner of the Pallagian heresy and dumped over 200 z and v rod inscribed cross slabs in the briney off Iona. He also points out that whilst the Books of Durrow and Kells draw (?) extensively from the images of the same stones..they dont use any of the z or v designs...so whats all that about then ?????
Does this mean that Columba wasnt as saintly as the visitors centres would have us believe...
W
|
gferg
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 20, 2001, 01:53
|
Got a quote about Pelagianism:
the Pelagian party was 'conspicous forriches, brilliant in dress, and surrounded by a fawning multitude' and that they 'considered it a mark of common vulgarity to agree with opinions everyone else holds.'
Oxford illustrated Roman Britain p320
brian
|
gferg
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 20, 2001, 01:54
|
|
sound like anyone anybody knows??????
|
gferg
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 20, 2001, 01:59
|
Werent the Colombans Irish not Roman diferent tonsure and stuff.........
I,ve never heard about the z + v rods as christian symbols although the pictii stones have lots of chistian stuff there seems to be argument about what the various repeated symbols mean.
Although there is an idea that as a lot appear in various pairings they're notices of marriage and/or allegiance between various clans.....
brian
|
caergog
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 20, 2001, 18:13
|
just had a thought as you mentioned the picts used the 'z' rod stuff but I wonder when it began as columba apparently came over to inverness chased away the lochness monster( who apparently liked eating people, the tourist industry made him reappear many years later as a friendly chap!) and converted the local pictish king to christianity did the christains influence the picts or the otherway around or is it just coincidence that they both used these symbols???
caroline
|
FourWinds
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 20, 2001, 20:36
|
It's very much a case of old symbolism either being pinched by the new religion (and given new meaning) or sneaky craftsmen putting old symbols on new stuff.
Both these are thought to be the case on Irish high crosses.
Columba was a nasty bloke .... he even fought several battles with St. Cogmall of Belfast!
|
woodhouse
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 20, 2001, 23:44
|
Well we will cross him of the xmas card list them......there is much evidence to suggest that Columba didnt "convert" the picts...they already had 200 years of their own version of Christianity.....Columba and his successors may well have wanted to cover this up at it wasnt front page history hence the stories of "conversions" in Inverness and the nasty heretics who needed to be sorted out.
But still z and v rods..what !! no animal or plant influence..pure invention.....I have read some things which also suggest they were symbols of rank tribe marriage etc. But did they just become redundant, they certaintly are not in any of the illuminated manuscripts......shame really.
Yrs
W
|
caergog
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 21, 2001, 00:58
|
Bridei, son of maelgwyn ( welsh king of Gwynedd) ruled as pictish king in inverness from about 554- 584 apparently in his 8th year of rule he was baptised by columba there is no reason to suggest he was not christain before hand as you stated.
I may be wrong here but once the picts and the scotts came together in union under kenneth macalpin in 843 it is thought that the pictish lineage system changed from the female line as it had always been to the male line like the scotts. This would account for changes on the symbol stones after that point and maybe even the demise of the 'z' and 'v' symbols as if they were female lineages and as has been suggested the stones represent marriages of different famillies the female name would be obscured by the new dominant male lineage.It is just a thought probably crap !
caroline (probably of pictish origin what ever a pict is) x
|
FourWinds
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 21, 2001, 09:49
|
I actually think that your comments about the change from female to male line might be an extremely plausable explanation for the disappearance of z & v rods, if as has been suggested that they may represent marriage lines when paired.
Of course the same coud also be true if the carvings were used as boundary markers and replaced earlier druidic Ogham stones for this purpose.
The removal of all things elemental from worship could also provide the answer.
|
woodhouse
|
Re: zed rods
Nov 21, 2001, 23:22
|
Although I may come in for some strife as a result of this one.... I will give it a go..... the shift from a matrilineal society is a very smart piece of thinking and leads me to think about the other very common symbol along side the z and v rods......the mirror and comb..which might be a more feminine than masculine symbol of identity to put on your stone ??
W
|
