Kozmik_Ken
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Re: balder, balor, lugh, loki & louhi
Jul 31, 2004, 10:44
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Tombo.... cheers for taking the time to research and write down all of this. Fascinating stuff.
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wideford
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Re: balder, balor, lugh, loki & louhi
Jul 31, 2004, 13:50
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Of course the more important division is Aesir and Vanir which is a less polarised form of the sura asura split showing between Persia and India (there of course the same names occured transformed phonetically and inverted morally on either side, whereas in Scandinavia it is a difference of function and completely different names).
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Wyrd Brother
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Re: ludowanus
Aug 09, 2004, 05:23
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Facinating stuff. Of course St Paul's is on Ludgate Hill where King Lud is buried.
But I thought Wan was related to the Wanes / Vanes or Vanir and so just means god?
I'd see Lugh as a light god like Apollo, who became Pol or Balder, Odin's son. So maybe Ludowanus
is another name for Balder. The 25th being the return of the 'light', and Odin being more of a stormy figure. But then all these archetypes a fairly exchangable
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Wyrd Brother
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Re: balder, balor, lugh, loki & louhi
Aug 09, 2004, 05:46
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Facinating. Did I mention that some historians think Balder changed dramatically in the Balkans among the Eastern Saxons living in that region? They came into contact with 'Thracian' and 'West Asian' Mystery cults exported from Asia Minor into the region according to some sources. This gave a more mystical spin to Balder and probably brought the oriental Baal into the equation. This new spin in turn leaked back to the Saxons still in Germany and onto those in England. So its just possible a Balder Mystery cult may have developed of unusual sophistication. Perhaps absorbing elements of Odinism too?
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Wyrd Brother
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Re: balder, balor, lugh, loki & louhi
Aug 09, 2004, 06:04
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Don't forget that Odin absorbed an earlier Germanic 'chief god' called the Sky Father who was probably a light god. Before this Odin was a shaman / storm / Mercurial type god. He then mixes these attributes. Later perhaps his son comes to represent the light aspects he's absorbed.
Loki may well be based on a biased version of Lugh as the Germans where once the slaves of some Celtic tribes, so their gods may have been seen as particularly malign. And this might also explain the association between Loki and Odin.
But I have problems in associating Balder the Beautiful, god of harmony, with Balor lord of the hideous Formorians, gods of chaos.
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TomBo
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"But I have problems in associating Balder the Beautiful, god of harmony, with Balor lord of the hideous Formorians, gods of chaos"
You need to bear in mind that the gods of any one pantheon usually become the demons of the pantheon that supplants them - like the horned god and the Christian devil. I read the whole Formorians vs. the Tuatha da Danaan thang in these terms, as one pantheon supplanting an older one. The similarity between Balder and Balor is solar: Balder's got associations with light, as you rightly point out, and I read Balor's "evil eye", with it's power to blast and burn, as a solar symbol. Also relevant is the Russian/Slavic deity "Byelbog, the White God, the representative of light" (from http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/srp/srp05.htm ). And speaking of the Christian devil, I wonder, in this context, about the name "Beelzebub".
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TomBo
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ygg and wan
Aug 11, 2004, 15:44
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"Of course St Paul's is on Ludgate Hill where King Lud is buried."
Wow, I didn't realise that, although I'd heard that London contained a Ludgate. Feels like another jigsaw piece falling into place.
"I thought Wan was related to the Wanes / Vanes or Vanir and so just means god?"
Quite possibly. I haven't the time to lay my hands on the quote from the Eddas right now (I just tried and it's proving elusive, although I know it's in there somewhere!), but they say something along the lines of "I was Ygg who became Wan". The implication is that Ygg (unhatched, like an egg!) was Odin's name before he hung on the world tree (named for Ygg) in shamanic initiation and that Wan was his name afterwards. Equating these names with these two opposing "states" of the shaman (ie. uninitiated and initiated) doesn't necessarily contradict what you're saying, I guess.
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TomBo
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Phoenican Baal
Aug 11, 2004, 15:50
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Thanks for that, I've always avoided bringing the Phoenican Baal into the equation. I'm wary because the British Israelites use Phoenican Baal to argue that the Ark of the Covenant is buried at Tara, Ireland, beneath the phallic Baal stone. What you say (taken in conjunction with the Baal/light-god name in Russia I mention above) suggests that Phoenican Baal really does have a place in all this, though.
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Earthstepper
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Re: balder, balor, lugh, loki & louhi
Aug 11, 2004, 15:50
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I'm staying out of this one 'cos it drives you mad. Its really all about archetypes and the origins of language. While you are considering Lugh, Lug and Lud don't forget Lucifer - the bringer of light turned into Satan. Matches as sources of light were known as lucifers until recently . So it goes on.
Nicolai Tolstoi has a lot to say about the similariites between Lugh, Odin, Christ and Merlin in his book on Merlin - virgin births, triple deaths, sacrificed on trees and so on. Me? I'm still hung up on the shamanic, drum beating, teaching South American Wotan.
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TomBo
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the "new" world
Aug 11, 2004, 16:12
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"I'm staying out of this one 'cos it drives you mad."
Know the feeling! ;) The Voynich manuscript is worse for that, though.
"Me? I'm still hung up on the shamanic, drum beating, teaching South American Wotan."
Yes, what you said there a while back sticks in my mind, too. It's intriguing, but again, likely to drive you mad! Here's some food for thought, though, a suggestion that the "new" world was known in the "old" world even before the Vikings (and of course there's always the Piri Re'is map, if you really want your head done in!).
http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/117_toke.shtm
(thanks to the person who sent me this link, btw - you know who you are)
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