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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Avebury » pagan persecution at avebury. |
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morfe 2992 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 16:00
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Good luck with the ongoing struggle. I would like to see a camping ground near Avebury, having had to struggle for years. I used to cycle to lots of sites and hide in hedgerows/copses in a bivvy, but I know this doesn't help regarding group celebrations. The problem with Avebury is obviously the conflicting interests of religion/village life and custodians. A sacred/religious site is ill-managed as soon as the custodian is not part of that religion. Avebury is like open-season for many Earth-centred religions, many of whom are low-key, many of whom aren't. It's this huge three-way divide that surely is at the centre of the problem at Avebury. I'm sure the ideal solution is getting the villagers on yer side, which might not be so easy, but may open up a local field for rent/camping in time? *be*
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freeavebury 22 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 19:14
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in reply.........the last thing we want is sympathy,and if this is your idea of help,then no thanks.........if all you can do is take the piss out of my style of writting then maybe you need a new hobby.... youve got too much time on your hands.....were trying our best to do what we can to find a solution to this problem,something which means so much to so many people....forgive me but isnt the whole idea of the message board to discuss matters such as this in an open manner with the whole picture not half truths risking jepordising the outcome what ever that may be..at least we are giving it a go and doing our best.....which is more than can be said for you......our vehicles are legal,all we are trying to do is park safely and in an area where we would be no hindrance or problem to others in the village,with out the threat of prosecution/persecution during ceremony times.......as a newcomer to this web world thing,do you treat all newbies the same?i make no apologies for being computer illiterate,but im trying my best and im learning......why not give me a break and take your head for a shit...................then well all have a bit of space to do what really needs doing.........ta muchly.mik xxx
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oriondruid 2 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 19:16
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Hi Mik, Emma and all. I'm coming into this thread a bit late but have been discussing this situation on some other message boards. Some here have raised the point that as a recognised religion under EU law we have a right to peacefully carry out our practices. These include ceremonies at dawn and midnight. Since no public transport to and from Avebury exists between those times these restrictions on car/vehicle parking completely bar us form persuing our spiritual path at our largest working temple! NT have always in the past been flexible about this over pagan festival weekends and it appears from what I hear that the driving force behind this parking ban is not the NT but the local Parish Council. This is by definition linked to the local Christian church, so who is pushing for this? Is there a Fundie Christian biggot or two sitting on the Parish Council? I agree that this ban might be needed at 'normal' times to prevent large numbers of travellers and nomadic people attempting to set up semi-permanent camps in the car park. However at pagan festival times it should be waved. The tourist car park is outside the boundaries of the earthworks on the edge of the village and people who camp there as a rule would not in any way disturb the villagers, which has been suggested as an excuse for this ban. We do not hold raves or use loud amplified loud music in the car park. At least only on one occasion in the last couple of years can I remember anyone doing so, they were not regular attendees and even then shut the music off fairly early. Solstice two years ago a massively loud party was held in the village by a resident which went on till near dawn! Many Blessings. John Pullin, (Oriondruid).
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freeavebury 22 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 19:27
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Hi John, thansks for the message. The lates seems to be that it is not only the Parish Council, but the County Council is heaviliy involved. We are looking in to a possibility of some land outside the WHS, which would be funded by ourselves. The negotiations for this are obviously at a very early stage!! BTW, could you post us the links for the 'other' forums? our email is [email protected] if you prefer not to post them here (but you could if you wished!!)
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Grendel 317 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 19:35
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Parish Councils are NOT connect to the Christian Church - they are third tier of local government in England and can be run on political or 'resident's assoication' grounds. You become a parish councillor through the democratic process of elections. There is nothing to stop a Pagan becoming a parish councillor so long as he or she is nominated and then polls enough votes to get elected. Cheers G
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freeavebury 22 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 19:40
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NO! We never mentioned any light or dark forces - read the threads! Secondly pagans are being persecuted because we are being denied reasonable access to our 'temple' - its really that simple. We really think that energies should be better spent elsewhere, rather than procrastinating over false dichotomies between light dark pagan or motorist - one can belong to more than one group at a time - so who can say whom is being persecuted? But the fact is someone is! and that is enough for the discrimination and indirect discrimination laws in this as we understand it. Therefore we need to capture the current ideological zeitgeist and follow up our empistemological positions. so there ps would you light for your dark tunnel?
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Steve Gray 931 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 20:10
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"Make no mistake - this is but the first distant rumblings of a monumental battle between light and dark" Perhaps it's you who should read the threads. That was a quote from Simon Templar. He has also posted exactly the same message again lower down this thread and and you posted a following message agreeing with him. You say you don't want sympathy, but you ARE asking for help. I think SB was refering to a sympathetic hearing, which has a rather different meaning from "sympathy". Let's put it another way, having a tantrum over a critical message is likely to alientate you from those who might otherwise have been on your side. Message for Simon Templar: 4W = FourWinds, so I guess you can now interpret my lack of previous comment in the appropriate way.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 20:13
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Had to look that one up. Couldn't find empistemological so I guess you mean epistemological positions, which it turns out means "The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity." So I guess to have an epistemological position means you have a position of some certainty regarding your position (unusual amongst Pagans) So I can't resist asking, what's the empistemological basis for your claim that it's your temple? i.e. what, precisely (no waffle) are the presuppositions and foundations, and the extent and validity of your claim? No hurry. (I started off totally on your side but I'm beginning to think you're here to annoy).
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Kate 11 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 20:27
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Hi All, This unfortunately wont help much with the case, but it is interesting that the Parish Council have already had a mention in the World Pagan News regarding their solutions to traffic problems at Avebury - maybe they can help? http://paganinstitute.org/e-world_pagan_news.html Regards Kate x
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freeavebury 22 posts |
Nov 09, 2003, 21:10
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Hi ok, the last post was meant to be slightly tongue in cheek, but since you ask, good question and well made. My working definition of epistemelogical is 'theory of knowledge' This definition (I believe) neatly surmises the longer dictionary offering, and is a definition widely accepted in the social sciences. As for my epistemelogical position, it is just that - mine. I dont claim to speak on behalf of others regarding this issue. So you initially ask what is me EP ragrding my pagan 'beliefs' Well, these are based on my experiences as a pagan, both in stone circles and without. These experiences have been felt both on a physical level and a psychological level. Why else would I be a 'pagan' if i didnt hold such beliefs. however I must add that these arent mere beliefs - i KNOW!! This then ties in to the theory of 'knowledge'! Secondly you ask how I can claim Avebury is a 'temple'. We are well aware of the lack of 'factual' writings, most of our accounts being based on the biased writings of |Caesar amongst others and it being an oral tradition. However, I believe knowledge is not always based on 'objective truth' Knowledge can come from within (and the without!). We use the place today as best we can in relation to the energies about the place, and try to be as faithful to the past as possibe. However, we also believe that paganism is an organic tradtion, constantly evolving to fit in with contemporary life - so if we are to say it is the temple of the Ancient Britons, who is anyone to say we are wrong (or right?). Thirdly, when we use the phrase 'our' temple, we do not mean 'not yours'but 'everyones', we certainly make no claim upon the place for ourselves. Finally, we apologise if we offend anyone, but we take this issue very seriously. If we all go along patting ourselves on the back, we would be taken aprt in court, so we need as many viewpoints as possible, in order to equip ourselves as well as practically possible, and this does include taking on board comments we may not necessarily agree with. Please remember we are not the trouble makers - this is down to the relevant authorities. If we do not make a stand now, there will be no overnight parking for ANYONE at any time. We must all act together to prevent this monstrous miscarriage of our rights as citizens and (if applicable!) Pagans. bleesed be
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