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Unsung Forum » Have I been told off by Julian on the Drudion for.... |
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Edited May 03, 2009, 12:40
May 03, 2009, 12:19
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dave clarkson wrote: I believe China is the highest consumer in the world. Your belief is wrong. China's per-capita carbon emissions are half of Europe's, and about a quarter of America's. (Source: ‘World Per Capita Carbon Dioxide Emissions from the Consumption and Flaring of Fossil Fuels (Metric Tons of Carbon Dioxide), 1980-2006’, US Energy Information Administration) This includes the 33% of China's emissions that are manufacturing goods for export (ie us outsourcing our emissions). American academic Jared Diamond calculates: "Per capita consumption rates in China are still about 11 times below ours, but let’s suppose they rise to our level. Let’s also make things easy by imagining that nothing else happens to increase world consumption — that is, no other country increases its consumption, all national populations (including China’s) remain unchanged and immigration ceases. China’s catching up alone would roughly double world consumption rates. Oil consumption would increase by 106 percent, for instance, and world metal consumption by 94 percent."
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Edited May 03, 2009, 12:37
May 03, 2009, 12:31
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IanB wrote: Given humanity's current stage of enlightenment and the last 250 years of history I tend to believe that in our corner of the world capitalism is often the only reliable bullwark we have against despotism. We achieve it by doing precisely the sort of inhuman slaughter you speak of! Only, as we're financially colonial, it's not in front of our faces. Our material comfort is a concentration of wealth. We are the same colonial power that we ever were. We're squeamish about having slaves in our back yard these days, much more savoury to squirrel them away in an Indonesian sweatshop. In America, you still get black hands working the same fields for no money as their slave ancestors. Only now we call it prison labour. IanB wrote: we are in some cases talking loss of life on an unimaginable scale. The millions dead in Iraq to supply us with oil, the millions dead in central Africa to supply us with precious minerals, the eradicated tribes of South American forests, they would all surely agree. IanB wrote: What seems to temper despotism is the hope for material improvement. What drives despotism is, in large part, control of resources that generate the most profit. IanB wrote: I still believe that if people in the more prosperous nations were specifically told the number of Dollars or Euros or Pounds that they themselves would have to give up each year in order to guarantee a just global distribution of water, food, health care and shelter then there would be a majority who would sign up for that if the plan is credible regardless of the material cost to them personally. No flags required. Beautifully put there, really eloquent. I totally agree. Which is what makes me motivated to relentlessly struggle for change. I know that the overwhelming majority of people have an intrinsic thirst for justice and that, when we really see what we're doing, we choose the fair thing. and yes, as you say, that people will sacrifice for the common good if needs be.
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Stevo 6664 posts |
May 03, 2009, 13:22
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Wooden mind getting one of those if they're real. Looks pretty incredible. Just need to watch out for splinters from the mouse and keyboard though.
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dave clarkson 2988 posts |
May 03, 2009, 14:40
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Your original post said... "The highest consumers in the world, twice the UK's carbon emissions yet a lower standard of living for most, that laissez-faire freemarketeering that views the rest of the world as serfs and raw materials for corporate profit." I interpret that to mean the highest consumers in the world AS WELL AS twice the UK's carbon emissions etc........ The US may have more carbon emissions but China has a higher rate of consumerism in the general term than the US. 8)
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Edited May 03, 2009, 20:18
May 03, 2009, 20:14
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IanB wrote: That said I still believe that if people in the more prosperous nations were specifically told the number of Dollars or Euros or Pounds that they themselves would have to give up each year in order to guarantee a just global distribution of water, food, health care and shelter then there would be a majority who would sign up for that if the plan is credible regardless of the material cost to them personally. No flags required. Distribution of wealth. Yes, a little mantra of my dear old dad's (RIP). I've always believed there is enough for us all on this planet, even yet, but too many have got too much. So simple. But some prefer to the abstraction of posturing waffling anger and weekender anarchy to call for what would really once and for all amount to 'direct action'. No flags required indeed. :-) x
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Edited May 03, 2009, 23:05
May 03, 2009, 20:51
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Hunter T Wolfe wrote: . Anyone suspected of once being a U2 fan would be sent to the gulag. Are you trying to suggest that this would be a bad thing?
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Citizensmurf 1703 posts |
May 03, 2009, 22:54
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Hunter T Wolfe wrote: (Cope's) increasingly political stance is going to continue to split his fans on here more and more I think. I don't agree with everything he says by a long shot, but I think I'm broadly in agreement with his general stance. His politics though do seem very much instinctive and emotional rather than rational and clear-cut- often even contradictory. And a lot of it is just MC5-type sloganeering to shake things up, rather than a thought out ideological platform. I'd never vote for Julian; I'd hate to have him in power, I think he'd turn into a Psychedelic Stalin in five minutes. You'd only be allowed to vote if you had the right haircut. Anyone suspected of once being a U2 fan would be sent to the gulag. Let's keep buying his records so he never has to consider that career option! I agree that JC would not make a realistic political leader. It is really hard for me to understand which side of serious his comments are sometimes. The funny thing, which Mingtp makes reference to in his "Life of Brian" quotation, is that most people hold the same basic principles, but are constantly at words over the minor details. Here is a link to a press conference from the authors of the Rebel Sell, if anyone is interested. It gives a good overview of the ideas discussed within the book. http://www.goodreads.ca/rebelsell/
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kingrolo 37 posts |
May 04, 2009, 09:13
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Talking about China in relation to Destroy Amerikkkan Kapitalism banner on photos of recent Maida Vale session - have you had a close look at the photos from the fuckinBBC website? There are a few armband/headband versions of the black'n'red with chinese (I think) characters on them. Any idea what they may mean? On the note of the whole capitalist thing in general a vague recollection of something mentioned in the apoliticists anti-bible, thundersqueek, and related works, posits that money has been trained as a flock species/pack animal and therefore gathers in large groups and if you're not near those clouds you is gonna be poor (sorry, have none of my books nearby at the moment to quote direct). I see the main problem as being that most people's powers of manifestation are riddled with virus and demons for sating base and petty desires that flow from a deep spiritual bankruptcy - the sort of thing that the ArchD is, as far as I can see, trying to address. I'm not sure entirely what he's up to but he's certainly made some things very clear. Phrases like Warriors Path spring to mind. The irrational action of banging on a drum to bring down Kapitalism, as it were, is not really open to scrutiny, in that the effects can't be causally linked to the action. As such whether you 'win' or not or even actually manage to affect change, is not the criteria for success but that the struggle is the success, and in itself provides an awakening and brings the unconsciousness to light, by "getting your nose up against it". Perhaps the target is kind of arbitrary and artistic in nature. I'm not surprised that a lot of people see it as a nonsense Personally I'm also a big fan of Thee B.Childish and he sez that the struggle and the enemy is always yourself and the success is to get out of bed and paint; that the only true anti-establishment is painting. Arbitrary perhaps but not without insight I feel. If you can't change yourself change the world and if you cant change the world change yourself. As the ArchD pointedly takes from Blake - make your own system or be enslaved by someone else's. I think that that's the real struggle and the warrior's path, and the benevolent souls amongst us are the one's who do that whilst at the same time try to open others minds, though of course liberating them from enslavement of whatever kind doesn't mean they are going to do the same thing with their freedom as you do with yours. Amerikkkan Kapitalism (sic) is pretty much the prevailing system going at the moment and relies on people being subjugated for it's survival. The thing is with it, and I think that the ArchD has hinted at this in those Q&A's he did in 2000 (if I remember rightly), is that it has it's own survival as it's main interest and is a parasite on the arse of humanity and will continue to try and survive right into the Great Awakening. I don't understand economics and I'm with the mythogrophers who see all these systems as basically illusions that will continue to deviate in their efficacy (or effectiveness?) and will in all likelyhood turn out not to be what they seem to be. As such I can't get into the details too much - I get a bit bored. The "righteous individualism" that seems to be characteristic of the megalithic culture is exactly the kind of thing that threatens capitalism and which capitalism (should I use capital C?) tries to dilute and turn to it's own ends. A lot of the posts here seem to instinctively sense one way forward, though, is to have some kind of dialogue or bargain with the system, rather than zero tolerance, and in that way somehow harness it for something positive, or at least stop it's stranglehold on human culture - something for the unruly imagination to grapple with.
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Big Nige 38 posts |
May 04, 2009, 09:43
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kingrolo wrote: Talking about China in relation to Destroy Amerikkkan Kapitalism banner on photos of recent Maida Vale session - have you had a close look at the photos from the fuckinBBC website? There are a few armband/headband versions of the black'n'red with chinese (I think) characters on them. Any idea what they may mean? The bands in question are Japanese not Chinese and they say (wait for it ............................................................) Black Sheep.
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Merrick 2148 posts |
May 04, 2009, 11:29
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dave clarkson wrote: I interpret that to mean the highest consumers in the world AS WELL AS twice the UK's carbon emissions etc You interpret correctly, squire. dave clarkson wrote: The US may have more carbon emissions but China has a higher rate of consumerism in the general term than the US No it does not. Read Jared Diamond's bit after the carbon emissions that state per capita, based on numerous consumption rates such as metals, oil, plastics, the US is 11 times higher than China.
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