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Unsung Forum » Have I been told off by Julian on the Drudion for.... |
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Jim Tones 5142 posts |
May 02, 2009, 18:00
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Moon Cat wrote: You are a bad man! You are a good bad man. But you're a bad man. I know.... I know.... 8^) moi? hee! hee! ;-]
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Jim Tones 5142 posts |
May 02, 2009, 18:02
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FOMouse wrote: Jim Tones wrote: What I find strange about all this, is that JC never replies to any comments- Unless of course, he's going under a pseudonym (cough!) I also believe that some folk on here, actually think that he doesn't read every comment on every section of H2H! Maybe the 'mystique' would be ruined for some people if he did reply. ;-) Ok I admit it, I am Julia Cope. I have been for ages. Now, if you like my records, send me cakes and pizzas and beer to show your love!! Show it! I want more love than Morrissessessessey gets from his devoted band of hapless, deluded bum nibblers. (Hmmm Wonder if that will work...? Probably shouldn't have said that out loud. fnff) On their way! btw- extra pepperoni isn't it...er....doh! =8-[ ]
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FOMouse 228 posts |
May 02, 2009, 18:10
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Jim Tones wrote: FOMouse wrote: Jim Tones wrote: What I find strange about all this, is that JC never replies to any comments- Unless of course, he's going under a pseudonym (cough!) I also believe that some folk on here, actually think that he doesn't read every comment on every section of H2H! Maybe the 'mystique' would be ruined for some people if he did reply. ;-) Ok I admit it, I am Julia Cope. I have been for ages. Now, if you like my records, send me cakes and pizzas and beer to show your love!! Show it! I want more love than Morrissessessessey gets from his devoted band of hapless, deluded bum nibblers. (Hmmm Wonder if that will work...? Probably shouldn't have said that out loud. fnff) On their way! btw- extra pepperoni isn't it...er....doh! =8-[ ] Extra everything silly! Wait, you're in America aren't you?!! I want this pizza to be like the spaceships in Indepence Day - It should burst through the clouds, blot out the sun and descend into my gaping maw. Fuck, I suppose you want a song or summink. "Er...World Shut Your Mouse!" There, now giz the grub!
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited May 02, 2009, 20:00
May 02, 2009, 19:44
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I haven't thought this through but the difference between a Civl War and a Revolution seems to bs that in the case of Civil War the conflict is a struggle between existing elites or competing interests from within a system that remains broadly in place in the aftermath. In the case of Revolution the conflict is instigated as a means of over-throwing the existing system and replacing it with a different one. The 1640s were I think therefore more Civil War or Military Coup than Revolution.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited May 02, 2009, 20:38
May 02, 2009, 20:20
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Merrick wrote: Citizensmurf wrote: the notion of destroying capitalism (and American Capitalism at that, as though it merited a seperate entry in Webster's) is completely ridiculous. In what way is it more ridiculous than continuing capitalism? Capitalism requires perpetual economic growth. Why does it? What is it about capitalism specifically that demands that growth be perpetual? Surely the problem is not the specifics of a politcal or economic system but a basic failure of the human imagination. We are as a species incapable of believing that we can enjoy a safe existence without tangible proof of a successful harvest, the knowledge that the fruits of that harvest are controlled by our tribe and that the security of the tribe is guaranteed by Great Men. Adam Smith didn't invent that. Engels couldn't begin to undo it. It can't be remedied at the point of a pike or a gun. We can dress up our amnesia however we like but the fact is we know more than ever of the world and the conditions in which fellow humans live and yet we do nothing because we have not, as a species, made a conscious connection between how "we" live and how "they" die. We haven't learned to conceive what it means to be safe on anything beyond a tribal level and so on it goes. You can dispense with Capitalism or any -ism you like but that isn't about to change as a result of any bottom-up political movement of the people. The one kind of movement that really changes "how are we to live" thinking is migratory. We have had our chance so now we are to have change thrust upon us instead. Which is a fair cop in the circumstances.
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Citizensmurf 1703 posts |
May 02, 2009, 20:45
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Merrick: I don't pretend to be an expert on such matters, and mostly I still find myself unsure of exactly what Cope seems to be proposing in his writings and lyrics of the last while. What does "Destroy Amerikkkan Capitalism" mean to you, because outside of being a mildly shocking statement, it is totally meaningless to me. When I say it's completely ridiculous to announce the destruction of capitialism, it's because all of us are constantly involved in and expanding on the basic principles of capitalism, despite how some seem to think that there is a better way. It is a complex issue, and what I mostly have problems with are the proponents of so called 'anti-consumerism'. These descriptions of 'the conformed masses' who only live to consume are a giant myth that seems to have taken over the ideology of many young urban dwellers. Distinction, not conformity is what drives competitive consumption. It is the mindset of being different from everyone else that is the single greatest driving force of our modern economy. As far as changing the law, I agree that the same tactics do not apply to every situation, and historically many different approaches have been used with successes and failures. Protest is a vital part of democracy, but I strongly believe in understanding the difference between deviance and dissent when engaging in political actions. If only for another viewpoint, because I understand you to be a well read and passionate person based on your articles posted on this site, I do recommend reading "The Rebel Sell". I would do the same if you recommend a book for me. (Is GM crop genetically-modified crop? I would need to read more about that situation to understand your point.)
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Merrick 2148 posts |
May 03, 2009, 03:19
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Citizensmurf wrote: What does "Destroy Amerikkkan Capitalism" mean to you I hear it as a call that is against capitalism, but especially against the values that are at their most distinct releif in the American expression of capitalism. The highest consumers in the world, twice the UK's carbon emissions yet a lower standard of living for most, that laissez-faire freemarketeering that views the rest of the world as serfs and raw materials for corporate profit. No, that's not an exclusively american vision but I do think America has excelled at propogating it. Citizensmurf wrote: When I say it's completely ridiculous to announce the destruction of capitialism, it's because all of us are constantly involved in and expanding on the basic principles of capitalism I don't think that follows at all. Were revolutionary Bolsheviks equally ridiculous before 1917 because they paid taxes to the Tsarist regime? Were all those engaged in the anti-colonial struggles of the mid 20th century ridiculous because the fruits of most of their labours and the institutions of health care, policing, etc, were those of the occupying power? Citizensmurf wrote: It is a complex issue, and what I mostly have problems with are the proponents of so called 'anti-consumerism'. These descriptions of 'the conformed masses' who only live to consume are a giant myth that seems to have taken over the ideology of many young urban dwellers. Distinction, not conformity is what drives competitive consumption. I think we're in considerable agreement here, but there are some elements I'd take issue with. The 'distinction' that many people aspire to is a distinction based on status derived from - even directly proven by - material goods themselves, and what your particular arrangement of possessions says about you. For example, there is a lot of distinction based on what car you drive. Even within the drivers of the same make and model, whether you have the XL or the GTi is a big statement. Within all of this is a refusal to contemplate the idea that the same sense of worth can be attained without any car at all. Citizensmurf wrote: It is the mindset of being different from everyone else that is the single greatest driving force of our modern economy. I see your point, and the truth in it, but I don't think that's the whole story. If I had to name a 'greatest single drive', I'd say it was more like the desire for happiness, specifically a happiness that quells the dissatisfaction, emptiness and longing. Quite how much that feeling is there anyway, and quite why, are murky and lengthy things to divine. But it is clear that corporate capitalism exaggerates those feelings in people in order to sell them stuff they wouldn't otherwise buy. The whole of marketing and advertising is based on figuring out what people want then saying they'll get it if they buy the product. Then they buy it, find it hasn't made them happy ever after, and so there's an even deeper dissatisfaction that makes them more susceptible to the next piece of crap. You're ugly and wrong and you smell bad. But buy our product and you won't be. You want to be loved by someone forever. Buy our product and you'll be irresistable to just the sort of person you desire. and if you don't buy it everyone will ridicule and shun you. These people here use our product and they look happy and like they have frequent sex. Citizensmurf wrote: (Is GM crop genetically-modified crop? Yes it is. Sorry for the jargon. Do I take it you're from outside the UK? It's such a well-known abbreviation within the UK that I used it wiothout thinking. Citizensmurf wrote: I would need to read more about that situation to understand your point.) Not necessarily, I think the principle is clear. There are certainly campaigns where waiting around to get arrested has worked. The people who smashed up a Hawk jet that was due to go to Indonesia for the genocide in East Timor did that, and the resulting court case clearly brought the spotlight on to the issue in a way sneaking off would never have done. But there are also many cases where doing your direct action and surviving at liberty to do another one can be more effective, especially with spectacular action that will get attention anyway, or where the pressure is really between the activists and the target and it doesn't require a mass social shift. There are also many campaigns that work best with a combination of these tactics.
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dave clarkson 2988 posts |
Edited May 03, 2009, 04:25
May 03, 2009, 04:23
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"I hear it as a call that is against capitalism, but especially against the values that are at their most distinct releif in the American expression of capitalism. The highest consumers in the world, twice the UK's carbon emissions yet a lower standard of living for most, that laissez-faire freemarketeering that views the rest of the world as serfs and raw materials for corporate profit." I believe China is the highest consumer in the world. Also the banner reference to 'Amerikkkan' (note the three k's) - do you not think that is a bit over reactive in reflection of America making political progress in recent times? Would Obama represent Amerikkka? 8)
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited May 03, 2009, 10:08
May 03, 2009, 08:32
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dave clarkson wrote: "I hear it as a call that is against capitalism, but especially against the values that are at their most distinct releif in the American expression of capitalism. The highest consumers in the world, twice the UK's carbon emissions yet a lower standard of living for most, that laissez-faire freemarketeering that views the rest of the world as serfs and raw materials for corporate profit." I believe China is the highest consumer in the world. Given humanity's current stage of enlightenment and the last 250 years of history I tend to believe that in our corner of the world capitalism is often the only reliable bullwark we have against despotism. I know Bucky Fuller wasn't hanging with the MC5 and that he and his like aren't considered to be all that hip any more but many of the most remarkable far-seeing and progressive thinkers of our age when it comes to the allocation of resources are card-carrying disciples of the profit motive. I would sooner seek a solution to global injustice from someone who knows how to build something that works in terms of successful human interactions and can see the importance of detail within a bigger picture than from any kind of wide focus idealogue. Once the concern with detail at a human level is let go then all kinds of horrors are possible. Whatever colours or insignia our leaders wear the idea that the nation or empire can do without some people (sometimes quite a lot of people) if it means that those leaders can impose their will and achieve their aims is common. The collective amnesia that allows it to happen equally so. We know it is a lottery. We choose to allow it to continue. Whether that proess of selection is achieved through war, disease, unenlightened colonial power, starvation, a more subtle form of economic degradation or some other mass misery the concept is the same and we are in some cases talking loss of life on an unimaginable scale. What seems to temper despotism is the hope for material improvement. Doesn't say much about us as a species but it holds back the worst of what we are capable of. We all know what happens when the marketplace is cast aside and Great Men break out the flags and drums and teach us how we are to live and die. The Chinese of course know all there is to know about that Terrible Arithmetic and to view it as an American or Anglo-American or Euro-American problem can be as reductive as any other form of chauvinism. Self-loathing is not the same thing as the kind of self-knowledge that creates a collective imagination that operates beyond tribal borders. That said I still believe that if people in the more prosperous nations were specifically told the number of Dollars or Euros or Pounds that they themselves would have to give up each year in order to guarantee a just global distribution of water, food, health care and shelter then there would be a majority who would sign up for that if the plan is credible regardless of the material cost to them personally. No flags required.
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Hunter T Wolfe 1709 posts |
May 03, 2009, 12:17
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Citizensmurf wrote: Hunter T Wolfe wrote: If everyone followed the 'what if everyone did that?' rule, the world would be a much more boring place. If everyone did everything the same, the world would be an extremely boring place. Nah, I take your point, Smurf, but don't take it too seriously. They're not politicians or revolutionaries, just a bunch of old punks... artists, at best. Holding a banner saying you're against something doesn't neccesarily mean that you think that holding a banner is all it takes to defeat it. But it's a start. Deviance? Dissent? Be a deviant, be a dissident. Both are fine in my book. "Go on, you've got five seconds... say something outrageous." I try not to make such serious points around here (not that I can't be serious, but I generally come here for the music), but JC has been seeming more and more politically active lately, and his words have got me pondering. I like that Cope has a sense of humour about the world, I think without that, people tend to get lost in their aims. Though honestly, it's hard to tell when he's having a laugh and when he's dead serious. The book I quoted really solidified a lot of concerns I had about adbusting, anti-consumerism and the dreaded No Logo. The authors are a couple of Canucks, like myself, and it was a refreshing read, with a great sense of humour throughout. (I often find it strange when people call me Smurf, I really just use that name because it was the first thing I thought of when trying to setup a hotmail account years ago, now I just use it so I don't have to remember umpteen different usernames across the internet, my name is really Neal) Hello, Neal. I'm really Ben. Hunter T Wolfe was a pen name I adopted when I first started submitting music reviews to papers, conflating two of my favourite new journalist authors. Wow, a sunny day so I don't put the computer on and this whole debate has leapt far ahead of me. I rather think "capitalism: good or bad" is a bit big for me to join in with right now. But, Neal, I think the quotes from 'The Rebel Sell' that you gave us made a lot of sense and I'm in agreement with a lot of what you were saying. I just think we don't need to apply them to Mr Cope right now. His increasingly political stance is going to continue to split his fans on here more and more I think. I don't agree with everything he says by a long shot, but I think I'm broadly in agreement with his general stance. His politics though do seem very much instinctive and emotional rather than rational and clear-cut- often even contradictory. And a lot of it is just MC5-type sloganeering to shake things up, rather than a thought out ideological platform. I'd never vote for Julian; I'd hate to have him in power, I think he'd turn into a Psychedelic Stalin in five minutes. You'd only be allowed to vote if you had the right haircut. Anyone suspected of once being a U2 fan would be sent to the gulag. Let's keep buying his records so he never has to consider that career option!
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