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Quexalcote 228 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 15:08
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I absolutely hate those either/or statements myself. It was only resorted to because of Lawrence's absolutely ludicrous assertion that the US is just as scary as Iraq, which ultimately led to comparisons of Bush to Hitler. that's silly-ass nonsense, plain and simple.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 15:11
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Silly ass? Hmmph! Take it from a reactionary like you...
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duckbreath 254 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 15:48
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But Lawrence you think Bush, Kerry and everyone who votes republican or democratic is the same as Saddam - with your reasoning 95% of America is masturbating over images of Abu Ghraib prison - what's worth saving about America as you see it? Can you make a list of everything that you like about America that keeps you living there? What about the fact that you have freedom of association, a free press, freedom of expression - where the number one box office movie is actually a critique of the government - where else does that happen? Where else in the world can gay people get married? Why did Noam Chomsky's parents choose to emigrate to America rather than anywhere else when they were feeling the heat in Russia? It is because generally speaking if you live in America you have a bunch more rights than if you live almost anywhere else in the world.
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 16:22
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"But Lawrence you think Bush, Kerry and everyone who votes republican or democratic is the same as Saddam " that's plainly ridiculous, that is not what he is saying at all. It's also pretty misleading to say you have more rights in America than elsewhere - I think really you mean you have more money than people who live elsewhere, and this gives you the 'right' to live the extravagant lifestyles that capitalism promotes. The press isn't as free as you think - you rarely read truly subversive things in newspapers or watch programmes about them on the tv. If things like that are shown huge investors / promotors pull out their money. You mention Noam Chomsky - he is shouted down viciously all the time. For goodness sake, even something as patently obvious as global warming is denied vigorously by the american government, and surely any paper supporting the government also toes the line on issues such as that one? What impression do we the public in the UK get of 'The Americans'? It isn't one of people like Laurence, though Laurence is hardly alone in his views. There are plenty of intelligent liberal thinkers in America, but that is NOT the impression you get over here, you'd think (maybe more so before, obviously) that everyone was pro Bush and his war. And that is surely to do with the impression the media in the USA and the UK put out. the USA has repeatedly ignored international law and agreements on fundamental issues of human rights, if you want to talk about rights. What about capital punishment in the USA? for an example. And what's the use of supposedly giving your own people all these rights and then treating citizens of other countries like they're nothing? How many countries has America interfered with or bombed in the last 20 years? What about what's going on at Guantanamo Bay - holding those prisoners without trials or legal representation for like 2 years? Sometimes don't you have to take a detached view of your own country? Or would you be considered 'Anti American' and have to be thrown oout for being a traitor? It#s like the anti communism years. Er. Just some thoughts. Probably far too overreactionary, but I got annoyed by your first sweeping statement. Sorry.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 16:28
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Yeah, OK maybe there are rights, or 'freedom'. But I find it hard to trust a government that tortures and ruins lives elsewhere, or trains other armies to do it. There used to be a bumper sticker that said "no-one is free when others are oppressed." Or something like that, it was long ago. It just disgusts me when someone like Quex starts saying good things about a slimy right-wing president. I don't need to hear that the Iraqi war was a 'success' -- it wasn't! Maybe I just don't trust authority at all. i wouldn't feel that way if that disgusting massacre of priests in El Salvador happened. When someone confronted George H. B. Bush about it he just cruelly laughed at him. And he didn't answer my letters about it. So I don't want to hear how GWBush is 'good', 'double-plus-good', or 'not evil'. I don't believe it.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 16:32
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There! That's why I think like I do. I'm sick of Stepford people talking down to me about how 'great' or 'free' the government is. Maybe I'd feel the same way in any country though... But the way the system here is so cynical it's so obvious they don't have me in their best interest...
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 16:34
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err... Meant to say if the Salvadorian Massacre didn't happen. That was a typo.
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 16:42
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I have been reading some of Lawrence's comments and must say that some of them are far too rash and light, not usual on this website. In fact, though I can't say I quite like Bush, I would enjoy having a chat with him meself - he is so plain and simple that I would instantly love him. It is just that he should never have been allowed to get out of his ranch and get near such an influential place as the White House. It is however the sinister politicians with dangerous ideas around him like Rumsfeldt or Cheney that would rather invite comparisons with Rasputin and other hated evil historical figures. The end of the line for me was when I saw a picture of the torture device he approved of by which a naked prisoner is introduced head down in a bucket of water and allowed to 'near drown'. Middle Ages or what!!! We freely call some radicals Islamic 'fundamentalists' but there IS such a thing as Christian fundamentalism. I just do not believe that the people spouting out patriotic vitriol hand-on-chest spiced by words like 'freedom' or 'democracy' are the ones to be trusted. Letting them run the show in such a despotic way or even supporting the toppling of a dictator in such an aggressive manner is only giving them MORE power the next time around. Because if people in the US approve of getting rid of a dictator by forgetting the victims, the numbers of arabs joining al qaeda right now or the long term consequence then they will bloody well do it again - it is the neo-cons' favourite milieu, like a fish in water. That's why I think they should be stopped. Anything that gives them credibility after such a horrible fiasco is dangerous as hell in my book. As for Moore (who you mention before), at least he is the only person able to send a message to the masses slightly different from the usual one-sided CNN / Freedom Radio patriot-act-bounded media or even reach those who have never seen a documentary in their lives before or been subject to a tiny bit of critical debate. In a vast country like the States, that can only be a good thing as anything vaguely critical will never reach those good people living in limbo. The thing that you and I and all sensible people have in common is that we all want a positive change in the world. Wars driven by the economy are only in the interest of those fiercly holding on to a 1950s fossil fuel economy instead of forward-thinkingly embracing the alternatives. Wouldn't it be great if we did not have to depend on the middle east for oil? I wonder if there would even be a reason for Al Qaeda to exist. Perhaps terrorism is the alter-ego of the Bush administration - one depends on each other for their survival. http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/index.php?id=49 Hope all is well. AQ PS Any news of a Harmonium Boxset part 2.
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Hob 4033 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 19:07
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Soz to interrupt, but that's a damn fine point about GW there AQ. It's easy to forget that his primary purpose is to serve as a target for popular opinion, whether good or bad. He is in other words, a figurehead, puppet even. The fact that he seems a bit less than endowed with greycell wherewithall than would seem prudent, probably makes him all the more effective in this role. The blighters behind him are the ones who get away with more tricks than they othrwise would, if they didn't have lil' George to distract and deflect anger. They should be pointed out, as they will still be there, even after he has gone, and they'll be preparing the next media delivery mechanism (i.e. Presidential candidate). My heart goes out to all americans who feel their govt's actions reflect upon them. It must feel even like shit than if you helped vote Labour in over here. we voted for the buggers cos we thought they wouldn't do the war thing. But at least we can say like America can, that we, as a population didn't deliver a mandate for this kind of behaviour in our names. But, unfortunately, as has been ponted out here recently, that argument won't cut the mustard with an enraged muslim who has just seen his children die in agony. We should not have wars. Full stop. End of fucking story. I'm getting gloomy now, off to distract mesell with old rocks. Old rocks don't start wars.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 19:36
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There's some hope... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=1&u=/nm/iraq_britain_berg_dc
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