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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 11:55
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And Berlusconi obviously has support from neo-fascists, not to mention he publically denied Mussolini had a hand in Hitler's Final Solution. So dont'cha call me a fascist Quex!
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 11:57
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So much for how great American democracy is!
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gorseddphungus 185 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 12:12
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"So.... should Hussein have been removed? If you think not, then I have a hard time considering you a serious person. If so, then by what method? " Prevention is the main problem. To correct the wrongs of previous american foreign policy is hard as hell (because it was so goddamn disastrous), and still those who oppose that policy are allowed to still oppose the war, aren't they? Or does the rest of the world have to agree simply because a dictator has been toppled by the same people who were shaking hands with him some time before? You say it is time machine thinking but I refuse to *forget* which is precisely what the US government is trying so hard to achieve. Seems like torture in Abu Grabe or Guantanamo had never happened now. What Rumsfeld should have done is apologise and resign (Nixon did). What Bush should do now is apologise and change foreign policy in the middle east in regards to israel. What makes me tired, as opposed to you, is precisely the opposite - people like Bremer reminding us now of the PAST - the torture chambers of Saddam Hussein and how many people were killed during his regime. So do not accuse people like Moore of the same tendency to use the past in his arguments. It is great that a dictator is gone but would you nuke the North Korean headquarters so as to get rid of the other evil-doer? The means would be different but the effects (100,000 innocents dead) are the same. When the cost of lives is so high then a war is surely questionable. Or perhaps the US gov were too naive to believe their smash and destroy campaigns would last longer than last summer (remember bush in may 2003) and wouldn't create secondary effects (widespread terrorism) and a backlash stronger than before...
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 12:29
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sorry, ishould have read further about your worries. as I said before, the US and the UK should have continued along with the UN, it wouldn't have created the backlash against them it has created. A war fought under the UN (if it had happened) would have been very different, and it definitely wouldn't have created the reaction in irak it has created. It is the preposterous and ludicrous attitude shown by the americans that has made far more enemies than ever before, as well as encouraged terrorists to get into that country. It is almost cartoon-like in the way it has been carried out and yet it has all been a real mess, not speaking of the ludicrous photos of tortured prisoners by the supposed 'defenders of freedom' which are a sign of something much deeper than 'just a bad apples'. The current US gov has done more damage to the States in the long term than anything else. It is obvious that Saddam Hussein could JUST NOT fight a war with anyone - the country was in ruins and there were no big weapons whatsoever. It would have been easy for a UN-led inspection or an even possible invasion to put pressure or even topple him with a much lesser counter-reaction from the insurgents. What I am convinced of is, the US should never again be allowed to carry out such monstrous attacks unilaterally on other countries supposedly in the name of 'freedom', as if they own the word. Most people who still believed in their actions are now disappointed.
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 12:40
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'This is a big problem with the anti-war left, the tendency to make assertions that are ultimately empty' that is exactly what i was thinking when reading your proto-typical extreme comparisons that the pro-war right wing camp seem to make all the time! ("where would you prefer to live under SH or under Bush"). it reminds me of the arguments i hear down the pub - A 'i don't eat meat' B 'you live on salads then!' A 'i don't like globalisation' B 'go and live in the caves!' etc etc
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 12:45
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well after reading this debate, i am back to where I started and i still think the first post represents it best
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 12:48
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I meant to say that, although it looks like a new beginning for Iraq, everyone is scared of the future there (a civil war perhaps?), the international situation hasn't changed (it has got much worse) and no one seems to have learned from the mistakes. What is clear is that violence has bred violence. It is quite depressing really.
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 12:52
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Hi Quexalcote, 'Do you really think the US is ever going to have a "righteous" president? Do you know anything about American history or politics? I'm certainly no expert in either, but US presidents have been a mediocre lot for the most part, and their only real job is to ensure American economic stability.' That is a good point, it isn't Bush that drives the war, it is the economy. Then something must be wrong in the inner workings of the system if it needs to murder other people in order to survive. We should start there.
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 13:05
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American democracy is not a dictatorship but that is why we shouldn't get down to the same low level as the dictatorships by allowing our soldiers to use torture, laugh at tortured prisoners or dead 'combatants' and even 'our' leaders (Rumsfeldt) condoning practices like near-drowning, what the hell is going on? I thought we were above that. The whole idea of democracy and freedom has been ravaged by these bastards. So much for the rest of the world trusting our so called 'democratic intentions'.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 14:48
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But they do. And something should be done! And it's hard for me to see it's simply the economy. I think the motive is just down-and-dirty greed!
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