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necropolist 1689 posts |
Feb 15, 2012, 12:26
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Fair points. The wider economic struggle (in which Gandhi played only a small part)was massively important, it made running India impossible. Gandhi was not irrelevant, but he wasn't the only player, and I'd dispute whether he was the major player. To say that it was by following Gandhi's principles that Indian independence was won is simply not true. You are absolutely right that the numbers of people involved are also absolutely critically important. Without the mass of people in support of any kind of 'anti-system' change, it wont happen. The more people involved, the less the need for any kind of violence. But if those fuckers are gonna start pointing guns at me and mine, and pulling on those triggers, then we need gund of our own to point back, or we'll be crushed. And not havng a gun doesnt do anything to stop people being co-opted into the system they are trying to change, it doesnt mean they will stick to any principles any more than the person with an AK47.
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The Sea Cat 3608 posts |
Feb 15, 2012, 12:37
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If enough numbers of people ie. the majority, really stood up, there wouldn't be nearly enough of them to pull the triggers. They, the average police officer/soldier have not faced such a scenario ever before. It would be inconceivable to them and common humanity would come to the fore. Very few would turn the guns on their own people, family, friends. Only some die hard headcases, easily over powered by numbers. You would be left with a quivering exposed power base that would immediately make every effort to negotiate for its own survival, and this would mean on your/our terms, and 'they' would be quite willing to co-operate as it is the nature of a virus to mutate. We'd be the architects of what it mutated into. Therefore, no need for the AK47. That's their fear toy. We don't need them.
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Feb 15, 2012, 12:42
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Tell that to the people in Homs.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 15, 2012, 12:54
Feb 15, 2012, 12:52
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necropolist wrote: Love & peace man (with a gun discreetly hidden in the shed) Except you haven't, have you (not one for killing people with)? And neither does Julian Cope. Otherwise I think it is fair to assume that you wouldn't be talking about it on a public rock and roll forum. We went round and round the block on this with the fire extinguisher from the sky thing but who really gains when rock n roll imports a fantasy of political violence as a blue bill to boost its flagging vitality and relevance? Not the audience. Certainly not the arist. And definitely not the oppressed.
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The Sea Cat 3608 posts |
Edited Feb 15, 2012, 12:56
Feb 15, 2012, 12:52
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I think that reply was to me ? ; I thought it was apparent that I was talking about such a mass movement here in the UK. It is a totally different socio-political context to that of Hom. That's a ridiculous comparison. We are a democracy (a shaky one at times I know) with a long tradition of such, and depsite our many collective faults over the centuries, there is still, for the time being at least, an inbuilt sense of justice and and right in the collective psyche with very deep roots,and this still does exist within the power structure no matter how uncool that may be to say. A very different situation.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 15, 2012, 13:06
Feb 15, 2012, 12:56
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The Sea Cat wrote: I think that reply was to me ? ; I thought it was apparent that I was talking about such a mass movement here in the UK. It is a totally different socio-political context to that of Hom. That's a ridiculous comparison. We are a democracy (a shaky one at times I know) with a long tradition of such, and depsite our many collective faults over the centuries, there is still, for the time being at least, an inbuilt sense of justice and and right in the collective psyche, with very deep roots. A very different situation. Indeed. When I see people signing up to fight alongside the Muslim Brotherhood et al in Syria as part of a 21st Century International Brigade then I will start to take the talk seriously. In the meantime it is "Guns on the Roof" part 101.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 15, 2012, 13:00
Feb 15, 2012, 13:00
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necropolist wrote: IanB wrote: I think anyone who has spent enough time around St Pauls / LSX recently to form an opinion would probably find that you are more in step with the prevailing vibe at Occupy than the "psuedo-revolutionary". Bloody revenge fantasies are just that .... But Occupy has achieved sweet FA. It doesnt even know what it wants to achieve. Its wonderfully well-meaning heart in the right place stuff (& I've bunged into the crowdsourcing Ians linked to elsewhere), but its nothng more than a temporary focal point for a eneral vague feeling of injustice. Its also attracted its share of comlpete nutters, conspiraloons with barely concealeed racist agendas (It's the lizards! Who are all Jews). To be fair to Occupy, those people were told to fuck off as far as possible, but its still full of a disparate bunch who have no idea how to achieve their (ill-defined) goals. The goal is to engender thoughtfulness. The goal IS debate. Would you be any more impressed if they dressed up as a cross between the MC5 and something out of The Warriors?
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Squid Tempest 8763 posts |
Feb 15, 2012, 13:08
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I heard it as "board hawk". No, I've no idea either.
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stray 2057 posts |
Feb 15, 2012, 13:09
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IanB wrote: We went round and round the block on this with the fire extinguisher from the sky thing but who really gains when rock n roll imports a fantasy of political violence as a blue bill to boost its flagging vitality and relevance? Not the audience. Certainly not the arist. And definitely not the oppressed. Yes, this is the point isn't it ? Who benefits from political posturing in music these days, be it violent or non-violent posturing. Its all co-opted, its all lifestyle, its all just badge and image. I agree with everything Necropolist has posted on this subject, I'd go further and argue that if you want to talk fantasies then a non-violent revolution is most definitely a fantasy also. I'm not advocating walking armpit deep in the blood of your enemies, but I'm also realistic enough to accept that any movement that becomes a genuine threat to a state will be met with violence, and will therefore be forced to respond with violence in order to survive. This has nothing to do with music or our wider creative culture though. It is extremely difficult to raise any kind of flag to rally people around in our western democracies, I completely appreciate that. People like cope who are co-opting revolutionary symbolism and effectively cashing in on (or proving their right on credentials) the current mood within the alternative sections of society really aren't helping anyoone except themselves. They are not raising a flag that anyone could rally around, they are not producing strategies or tactics, they're just wailing and protecting their own self image imo. The occupy movement is a case in point. I'm no fan of Zizek at all as some of you may know but the speech he delivered in NY to them was spot on. 'Don't fall in love with yourselves' this is what they most definitely have done. The UK occupy movements appropriation of buildings and turning them into autonomous spaces is however an excellant tactic that anarchist groups in this country have been doing for a very long time. Its a lead by example tactic, and it does resonate with people and make them think. However relasing another bloody fund raising album with all the usual bloody suspects and a cover by Mr Reid is just dumb.. incredibly dumb. Can't remember who said it but capitalism doesn't care what you're doing as long as you're making money. Now, I'm not saying that this album is indicative of that, but its part of the problem in the wider conciousness. I mean, they had workshops on designing the new logo for the occupy movement, wtf ? Make yourself a brand ? Whats needed is creative redeployments (such as the appropriation of buildings for new uses), even if it does mean wading through pointless and arguably (from a PR point of view) counter productive courses in Homeopathy and Yoga (both of which was going on in the 'Bank of Ideas'). If you want to make music for a new breed of revolutionaries read 'May 68 did not take place' cut the vocals out and just give us a fucking hard beat and a shredding mid range.
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Squid Tempest 8763 posts |
Feb 15, 2012, 13:16
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Hey, don't put yoga in the same bag as homeopathy! :-P I agree with your points on the whole. I do think that at least the Occupy movement had widened consciousness of various issues, which is a good thing, and an achievement in itself. Probably as much as they can hope to achieve under the circs, without resorting to actual violence. Indeed to me the raising of consciousness of the problems in our society and in our method of government is a reasonable form of evolutionary revolution. To some extent education and disemmination of knowledge is key to change.
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