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U-Know! Forum » The EU: in or out? |
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Jan 22, 2016, 19:15
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http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-9f4c-The-opposite-of-democracy#.VqJ8iy9idMt Worth a read. The real problem with the EU has never been 'foreigners', and the true left have recognised it for years. It's more than unfortunate that to even have reservations about the whole project automatically evokes 'oh you must be racist then'. Problem there of course is that is the main reason people would vote to leave, 'foreigners'. FFS people there are bigger fish to fry than that. Foot wanted us out, foreseeing it all for the rampant, expansionist corporate monster it has become.#
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Jan 23, 2016, 09:30
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That is interesting. Naturally the morning star is going to have a different take than you could read in most of the press. But I don't see that leaving the eu would make any difference to whether we were living in a capitalist pro-ttip nightmare - in fact surely our current overlords are more pro austerity etc than many other parts of europe. Except if we leave, we'll only have them deciding what happens. Like 'yeah ditch the human rights act' for example. Personally I like having the slim chance that "Europe" can dilute the worst ideas of the tories, that if you've got enough and varied people talking about things, a bit of sense will prevail. I know, call me naive. But I think it does now and again. But we're never, ever, ever going to get any improvement in workers' rights in this country under the tories, look at their plans for stuffing the unions. How could isolating ourselves make things any better. I suppose the morning star is hoping for a sudden change of heart by the voters of this country. Much as I desperately wish for and believe in the chance of Labour getting back in and being more left wing and there being some hope in this country... well even if they do, it always swings back the other way and the tories get back in. And extracting ourselves from the eu is a pretty permanent deal.
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Jan 23, 2016, 10:44
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Personally I prefer to stay in, a huge problem with 'Britain' is that those who are representing us still see Britain as some major world power and not the insignificant little island that we are. Whatever the EU has ended up being it was created to be a European unified democracy, and I personally see nothing wrong with that, the benefits are unending. Sadly it's ended up being run by self serving arseholes. What britain needs to bear in mind with leaving is that cameron is leaving us wide open to trade limitations where our nearest and likeliest trade ally would be Saudi Arabia. not the best of prospects there, also we'd lose a lot of US support who have a proxy investment in the EU through the UK. Cameron's terms for staying, while desperately trying to avoid a referendum are pathetic and in no way benefit us as a country. The Eu vote is nothing more than a vain attempt to curry favour with ukip voters, little more and I find it sad that the minority in this country always end up running the way things go. Me, I'll vote to stay, it's not perfect but we're better in than out.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Edited Jan 24, 2016, 00:11
Jan 23, 2016, 23:58
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Cameron's recent schtick regards in work benefits is nothing more than a device to hammer us over here too. If waiting four years is seen as discriminatory guess what do the same for UK citizens and so bravo problem solved. I am nervous about Turkey joining, right on the border with Syria, what morass cold that end us up in? And as it is the EU's humanitarian patience is wearing thin as they are helping Turkey out monetarily if they in turn back refugees, and I can't imagine the levels of pain going on there. I'd love the EU to work but I am really not so sure. To be honest I see some of it dissolving anyway.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Jan 24, 2016, 00:11
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Varoufakis had some interesting things to say, that Osborne's austerity is more as an exercise in creating class divisions whereas the sort meted out by the EU on Greece was in his view 'the real deal'. Greece voted left but got nothing of the sort. Now maybe voters were wrong to champion Syriza, I do not know. Regardless the country was on its knees, somehow somewhere the EU did not work for them.
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Jan 30, 2016, 13:59
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I think it needs drastic change but in principle it's a great idea and as part of that we could be part of a great program that moves forward in a positive direction. If we leave we'll very likely suffer the consequences. Cameron is a hypocritical dick of the highest order. He can't even make up his mind where he stands on the subject. If he can't get his way with his 'deal' then he's going to vote to leave the EU, if he can get his way then he'll vote to stay in. I think a lot of people are concerned about Turkey right now. I never used to be but recent revelations have given me serious doubts, not them as a country but the route their political leaders are taking. I don't mind Turkey as a country joining, but I'd want them to have a proper stance against Daesh and terrorism
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anthonyqkiernan 7087 posts |
Jan 30, 2016, 16:09
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The problem with that article is that the argument for leaving is not so we can bring down the international trade agreements that are part of it. Capitalism has gone beyond that. There is no geographical bureaucracy it cares about any more. The "common market" has a much weight as your village market. Personally, I'd rather live in a community than a market. But, it's too late to shut the gate on that one. The argument for leaving is not to have to accept the likes of human rights legislation. Now big business doesn't really care, the powers that be can pander to the NIMBY contingent and keep themselves in that power. Human Rights should be universal. As such, the bigger the contingent coming to a consensus, the more acceptable they should be to all parties. No-one is suggesting leaving to EU to extend human rights in the UK. Not even the Morning Star.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Feb 08, 2016, 12:29
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Cameron obviously is calling a referendum on something he doesn't want a referendum on. Dunno if that's ever happened in the entire history of the things. Probably not. Running scared of UKIP obviously. We've got quite a few Polish people living in our boring wee town and had their rights to live here been under threat I would have had a problem with that. As far as I can tell that isn't the case. But do we really need the EU to have something like a 'human rights act' for UK citizens? I've yet to hear what the opposite would be. Heard Hilary Benn hint on C4 news the right to holiday pay is worth hanging on to the EU for. Oh aye I am sure every worker in Britain would accept the removal of that one. Anyways will follow arguments as they go, or rather when they actually start I suppose.
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tk421 121 posts |
Feb 08, 2016, 13:18
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sanshee wrote: But do we really need the EU to have something like a 'human rights act' for UK citizens? I think we do need the EU. Without a codified written constitution who you are (subject or citizen and what those mean) and what your rights are and if they are enforceable, is vague and not readily known or available to those who operate outside the legal profession. This is one of the benefits of the Human Rights Act: your most basic rights are set out for you and can be known to you. That is one of the reasons that I believe we do need the EU. None of the main political parties, from the left or right, has ever enacted its own version of it. One may argue that it is so bland that it could be introduced by any party in the UK but it wasn't, it came from the EU. To me, it's the same as all the protection you receive in work. These 'health and safety' regulations are the enactment of EU directives to make where you work safe and the conditions bearable. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that these would not have been introduced by any of the main parties without the EU pushing their enactment. Better in that out.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Feb 10, 2016, 17:32
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The 'European' parts included in the Human Rights Act of 1998 were not entirely specific to *Health and Safety* regulation but were drawn up in the 50s (where these two words had barely been introduced to one another) and born out of an understandable desperation that Europe could never undergo the horrors of the past ever again. The convention seeks to denounce things such as torture, denial of liberty and all the basic things that allow a human being a 'dignified life'. We had unions and workers rights regardless of that and still would. No one can disagree with any of those aspirations, but I have been life long pissed off that religion trumps women's rights in many cases. In particular, those EU countries that deny women abortions.
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