carol27
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Re: Today, war is abstract. We are fighting ideas.
Dec 10, 2015, 14:38
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dhajjieboy wrote: carol27 wrote: Voltaire - "what can you say to a man who tells you he prefers obeying God rather than men, and that as a result he's certain he'll go to heaven if he cuts your throat?"
More relevantly as of late...
What can you say to a child of 10 years old.....
who is certain he'll go to Heaven if he cuts your throat?
Nothing, you can't say anything. It's indoctrination, brain washing, brutalism & possibly more importantly, survival. But the brutalising of children is hardly just the preserve of IS is it?
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sanshee
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Re: Today, war is abstract. We are fighting ideas.
Dec 10, 2015, 15:28
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I get you Carol, and in a way that can only come across as a cliché, I do look at my daughter and think 'what sort of world is she growing up in?'
I also know that as a mum, I care about here more than anyone on the planet.
In extending that really natural selfishness (dogs cats chimps humans, your own offspring is the most important) I thought about all the horrors of all these regimes and soon realised 'we can not change that' and maybe we shouldn't bother trying.
We do need careful border arrangements and yes, I do believe in all those reports of foiled terrorism plots but while that's been taken care of we need to take care of causes as well.
I also believe we should help refugees when we can, but we are seeing the craziest of cyclical events where we bomb countries people flee we take them in then bomb etc etc.
Now to causes, perhaps.
I do recall at least one Afghan who was trained up to work in some newly created 'Afghan security force' and soon enough turned his gun on an American soldier who was 'training' him.
And as much as we think of America being out of Afghanistan they aren't, CIA are training some other lot to this day.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/world/asia/afghanistan-civilian-casualty-khost.html?_r=0
When the Soviets were in Afghanistan Regan helped arm what would later become the Taliban, lost interest once the Soviets got a bloody nose and look what happened next.
Even if Dave's 70,000 'new model army' was a reality, who's to say what we are unleashing?
I can't see how not wanting to be part of the bombing is doing nothing, as far as I can see it is the most active thing we can do.
Setting civilian deaths aside, we are not making ourselves safer in the least.
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carol27
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Edited Dec 10, 2015, 16:24
Re: Today, war is abstract. We are fighting ideas.
Dec 10, 2015, 16:22
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Thankyou sanshee. You're far more eloquent & informed than I am. I'm not saying we should be sitting ducks. I'm not saying we should ignore it & hope for the best. I just get into this mind set of nihilistic destruction sometimes, & then I get angry. I think it's because I can't actually see a solution. War, hatred; this blinkered vision seems to be our lot & it just rolls on & on, & it's all orchestrated by a load of tossers of either which side who determine our lives for us. Nearly 2 million people marched in the anti Iraq war demonstration in 2003, the largest demonstration in British history & it achieved fuck all. I think Corbyn is a shining light, & I have a glimmer of hope because it would appear that quite a lot of people cannot deny the obvious truth he speaks; but he looks frail to me.
Afghanistan I think ( I must stress this is just me), was about the control of heroin. It was no coincidence that diamorphine disappeared from our pharmacies & hospitals & still is absent I believe,since the "war". You could argue that heroin funded terrorism, but me being me feels that our governments would far rather have control over this major worldwide sedation (not to mention the profits it brings from & to the drug companies.) Maybe, like oil, it's a resource worth killing loads of innocent people for. Did they really care about a few tribal communities killing each other? Do we really believe that they care about girls not being allowed to go to school? Nah,it's bullshit. They don't care wether kids get a decent education in this country never mind anywhere else.
Anyway, I could go on, but I'm aware that I could be accused of conspiracy theoryism.
I'm tired of it & I can't help but feel that we've sown the seeds of our own destruction & I can't argue against the intellectual rationalists &, yes I'd sometimes like the idea of the whole lot of them being blown away & I fear for my children's future, not to mention their children, but twas ever fucking thus...
My angels are a delight, & they're on my tree. Thankyou.
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sanshee
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Re: Today, war is abstract. We are fighting ideas.
Dec 10, 2015, 21:37
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Absolutely this is no 'moral crusade', even thought they try to paint it that way.
Spin a globe and point won't take you long to stop at more than a few places 'as bad'.
Places the 'moral crusaders' have no interest in at all.
I recall Cherie Blair actually said of Afghan women pre invasion (the country used to be rather peaceful and modern before Taliban) 'they don't get to wear nail varnish'.
I thought 'fuck me she knows their pain'.
How condescending was that?
Got me interested in reading up a bit.
Anyways glad they arrived, hope they don't look too dishevelled.
Still a few hanging there, if no one picks them up over weekend taking them in too.
x
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