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U-Know! Forum » Jeremy Corbyn continues promoting Labour lies about SNP (BBC Andrew Marr Show 27 Sept 2015) |
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Sep 28, 2015, 13:46
Sep 28, 2015, 13:29
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drewbhoy wrote: IanB wrote: As a instinctual internationalist I struggle with the very idea of nationalism as a political movement. My mind is open I just don't understand the argument or what the appeal is beyond tribalism and an arbitrary and wholly nostalgic sense of what constitutes a nation state. Should we turn the clock back to 1708 for everyone in Europe and return Greece to Venetian rule, turn a chunk of Holland over to Spain and send the rest of the Balkans into the arms of Turkey? 300 years on is there really any difference? Why should we suffer from a Govt and unionist parties that don't care? Its lies lies and more lies. I'd hoped and expected more from Corbyn but in the end he fell down at the first hurdle. As for nationalism I don't believe in that but I do believe in independence and Scotlands right to care for the disadvantaged/elderly/refugees/schools/health and so on. Turn the clock back 300 years if you want, doesn't make sense to me. We are looking forwards to creating a better Scotland, getting rid of sectarianism (the Vote No dream of keeping this going has had its day), taking on the racists, proper care for the elderly/disabled, better education etc etc. Maybe it is idealism but at least it's a start. It's wonderful that many people south of the border send letters/emails to the Scottish MPs asking for help with their concerns. No reason for that to stop if we are independent. What hurdle did Corbyn fall at? Conference delegates voted against Trident being a debating issue in favour of other items. Conference voted not Corbyn. It's a democracy not a dictatorship. In any case do you think Labour is going to support a party seemingly dedicated to bequeathing England a permanent Tory majority so as to have something solid to push against? Why on earth would we do that? I am not the one advocating turning the clock back. I am just throwing into the pot some other oddities of the European map that existed the last time Scotland was an independent state. I think there are grounds for doubt that the SNP will be able to prioritise any of the things you describe once independence is achieved. There are economic doubts and there is also the historical facts as to what generally happens to nationalist movements once the main political aims have been won. The USA probably being the prime example. For socialists the idea that working people are stronger together regardless of borders should be an article of faith and essentially there is no difference between what you describe and Boris advocating putting a wall around the M25 and declaring London an independent city state in order to protect *his* people and hang the rest. The nationalist and socialist instincts are I believe ultimately incompatible beyond short term marriages of convenience. |
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drewbhoy 2559 posts |
Edited Sep 28, 2015, 13:53
Sep 28, 2015, 13:51
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He claimed the SNP privatised Scotrail (privatised by the Tories), Calmac (its owned by the Scottish Govt.), he said the SNP were anti austerity (obviously didn't see party leaders debate), Labour agreeing to Tory fiscal policy if in power, no debate on Trident (he's supposed to be against Trident and on the side of peace :-( ) Now I have nothing to do with the SNP and don't vote for them but he should at least do his homework. |
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drewbhoy 2559 posts |
Sep 28, 2015, 13:54
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| I'd get rid of both. | |||
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Sep 28, 2015, 14:33
Sep 28, 2015, 14:12
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drewbhoy wrote: He claimed the SNP privatised Scotrail (privatised by the Tories), Calmac (its owned by the Scottish Govt.), he said the SNP were anti austerity (obviously didn't see party leaders debate), Labour agreeing to Tory fiscal policy if in power, no debate on Trident (he's supposed to be against Trident and on the side of peace :-( ) Now I have nothing to do with the SNP and don't vote for them but he should at least do his homework. I watched the same programme and found his push back at the SNP pretty mild considering. I didn't hear him say anything about supporting the Tories on fiscal policy. I don't understand your point about the SNP and austerity. The no debate on Trident was a conference decision. He wanted one. Conference didn't. He has not abandoned it at all. He quite specifically said he hoped to be able to turn his colleagues around. If JC is making other shit up then I would be kind of disappointed but in the end it would just be goose/gander. I do hope Labour will do a deal with the Greens in certain constituencies. That would be progress. |
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Edited Sep 28, 2015, 14:36
Sep 28, 2015, 14:30
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Funny, the SNP would sell their granny's back teeth to remain in the EU so does this mean Angus Robertson, who instantly complained they could do nothing about it because it is an EU directive, is now complaining about the EU? They are still fighting the case about alcohol pricing, even though they 'know well' that the EU considers the move to be against their free trade rules, so that they cannot even voice an opinion is bullshit. What about TTIP? Can you enlighten us on the SNP position there? Oh, and why you refer to that sinister windbag in Bath who calls himself a reverend for inspiration demonstrates how lacking in any critical thinking you are. The SNP have had a free ride for too long with their 'left' BS. The truth about them is coming out, it IS all just flags and nothing else.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Edited Sep 28, 2015, 14:45
Sep 28, 2015, 14:42
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drewbhoy wrote: Lawrence wrote: I would hope that they would take on racists anyways. But I'm not so hopeful when there's so much hatred going on in Eastern Europe in the guise of Nationalism. I've seen a lot of that in my travels and we don't see much of it here except from BNP/Britain First/SDL etc. Its scary the Eastern European stuff and in Finland the other day it wasn't very clever also. Look up Liz Lochhead 'our' national poet up here in Jockland. Complaining not only about there not being enough people in the arts, but not enough 'Scottish' people. Not that the arts in Scotland are lacking more people, but in particular blood Scots. SNP consider her an absolute 'darling'. Sickening. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13611691.Liz_Lochhead__There_s_a_shortage_of_Scots_at_the_National_Theatre_of_Scotland/ In fact there ye go. |
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Sep 28, 2015, 15:15
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RMT responds to SNP Trade Union Group statement on the RMT CalMac dispute. See SNP TUG statement below. RMT responds. General Secretary Mick Cash said; "This statement from a group claiming to represent trade unionists makes not a single mention of support for fellow trade unionists battling to defend jobs and services and instead hides behind a barrage of EU anti-worker legislation that has no relevance at all to this dispute and which could be challenged anyway with a united campaign. "RMT would appeal to rank and file SNP members and supporters to reject this defeatist line and stand by a workforce fighting to defend jobs, conditions, safety and lifeline ferry services against this attack. You can't claim to be anti-austerity, pro working class and pro public services and then duck the issue when jobs and services are under all out attack like on CalMac. The question to the SNP TU Goup is which side are you o?n?" Ends
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thispoison 253 posts |
Edited Sep 29, 2015, 07:44
Sep 29, 2015, 03:19
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http://wingsoverscotland.com/normal-service-resumed/#more-76026 IanB wrote: drewbhoy wrote: He claimed the SNP privatised Scotrail (privatised by the Tories), Calmac (its owned by the Scottish Govt.), he said the SNP were anti austerity (obviously didn't see party leaders debate), Labour agreeing to Tory fiscal policy if in power, no debate on Trident (he's supposed to be against Trident and on the side of peace :-( ) Now I have nothing to do with the SNP and don't vote for them but he should at least do his homework. I watched the same programme and found his push back at the SNP pretty mild considering. I didn't hear him say anything about supporting the Tories on fiscal policy. I don't understand your point about the SNP and austerity. The no debate on Trident was a conference decision. He wanted one. Conference didn't. He has not abandoned it at all. He quite specifically said he hoped to be able to turn his colleagues around. If JC is making other shit up then I would be kind of disappointed but in the end it would just be goose/gander. I do hope Labour will do a deal with the Greens in certain constituencies. That would be progress. So McDonnell's lies were "pretty mild considering"? Maybe from where you're sitting. He said Labour were the only true anti-austerity party now. Another lie. So I imagine what Drew meant was "he said the SNP were NOT anti austerity". A simple typo. I've lost all faith in these two - Corbyn & McDonnell - in the past couple days of bare-faced lying. It just may have been a good idea to seek consensus and alliance with like minded parties where you can - and you yourself mention the Greens, who played an excellent part in the pro-indepence campaign in Scotland last year - against the Tories and their austerity agenda. Y'know - the REAL enemy. But no, too small minded and hurting from their near-wipeout here in the General Election for that. And too "Tribal" - oh, yes. So fuck 'em. Labour clearly still do not have a clue about Scotland. Game on. PS/ I know I've posted links to Wings Over Scotland articles before, but I really do recommend readers take a few minutes to read the one below, which explores the "basis" for McDonnell's Conference speech SNP howlers. You'll maybe begin to realise the depths of mendacity to which Scottish Labour will stoop in their efforts to try to discredit the SNP at any opportunity.: http://wingsoverscotland.com/normal-service-resumed/#more-76026 |
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thispoison 253 posts |
Edited Sep 29, 2015, 08:06
Sep 29, 2015, 03:49
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Lawrence wrote: Personally I don't have a positive view of any kind of nationalism. I think it's just pretty window-dressing disguising bigotry. That's gotta be ironic considering your Clapton avatar, right?! "Nationalism" in the Hitler sense? One Nation's "superiority" over others? Yeah, clearly bad. Same with racial or religious superiority. But this is about Scottish "independence". Y'know, "self determination"? "Democracy"? When a clear majority of Scots decide they want independence, they should get it, right? Or maybe you propose the reintegration of the Irish Republic into the United Kingdom, against the wishes of the Irish people? Where'd you stand on Tibet? Palestine? Ukraine? All the former countries of the USSR? Kurdistan? |
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thispoison 253 posts |
Sep 29, 2015, 03:50
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drewbhoy wrote: IanB wrote: As a instinctual internationalist I struggle with the very idea of nationalism as a political movement. My mind is open I just don't understand the argument or what the appeal is beyond tribalism and an arbitrary and wholly nostalgic sense of what constitutes a nation state. Should we turn the clock back to 1708 for everyone in Europe and return Greece to Venetian rule, turn a chunk of Holland over to Spain and send the rest of the Balkans into the arms of Turkey? 300 years on is there really any difference? Why should we suffer from a Govt and unionist parties that don't care? Its lies lies and more lies. I'd hoped and expected more from Corbyn but in the end he fell down at the first hurdle. As for nationalism I don't believe in that but I do believe in independence and Scotlands right to care for the disadvantaged/elderly/refugees/schools/health and so on. Turn the clock back 300 years if you want, doesn't make sense to me. We are looking forwards to creating a better Scotland, getting rid of sectarianism (the Vote No dream of keeping this going has had its day), taking on the racists, proper care for the elderly/disabled, better education etc etc. Maybe it is idealism but at least it's a start. It's wonderful that many people south of the border send letters/emails to the Scottish MPs asking for help with their concerns. No reason for that to stop if we are independent. Well said Drew. Corbyn is in favour - as am I - of a united Ireland (or Northern Ireland seceding from the UK, to put it another way) so that's alright? Hypocrite. Where did Scotland go wrong? Maybe a bit of terrorism would have brought him on board?! What about a lnternationally recognised Palestinian State? Fine. Ukrainian (and all the former USSR nations) continued independence from Russia? Great. Chechneya? Of course! A Catalan free state? Wonderful! A free Tibet? Get out the bunting! So it's just Scottish independence that would somehow be a retrograde / "nostalgic" step? Why then end the UK at our current "arbitrary" borders? Why not just subsume the UK into a Euro-Superstate if he's such an Internationalist? It's about SELF-DETERMINATION. When the majority of Scottish people want an independent nation, they'll get it. Nothing the little-Englanders - or Islington "International Socialists" - or the rest of the UK - will be able to do about it. They, rightly, will not have any say. Enjoy your "Constitutional Monarchy" - not Democracy - Corbyn, and remember you're duty as one of Her Majesty's "Subjects" - she must be delighted that you're so happy to toe the line. Worra rebel! And IanB defeats his own argument. All those other Nations he mentions have evolved over the last 300 years. Why should Scotland not be allowed to do the same? It's not turning the clock back, it's moving it forward, taking our future into our own hands, making our own decisions, after far too long enduring rule from Westminster Govts that WE DID NOT VOTE FOR. The British Empire is FUCKING OVER! |
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