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jshell 333 posts |
May 11, 2013, 13:02
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stray wrote: Anyone who thinks we could survive outside of the EU is seriously lacking in their understanding of modern economics. We rely on subsidies and quotas from the EU, in certain industries, just as much as any other EU country does. Just watching what's happening now in Spain, courtesy of the beloved EU. The Spanish economy is such a basket case that all individuals have been instructed to give a statement of worth in regards to shares, cash, property etc. Anyone found to have disposed of personal assets prior to this declaration will be fined more than the value of the disposal. This is likely in part a lead up to the theft of personal belongings to cow-tow to the EU unelected autocrats who are accountable to no-one. In sort oft eh way that the personal theft of Cypriot assets took place. This is where the EU is heading and why we MUST leave it asap. The EU is moving fast towards a Communistic horror. Thank fuck that we are not part of the Euro and that Cameron - in his one display of sense - told them to 'shove' their transaction tax!
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stray 2057 posts |
Edited May 11, 2013, 14:14
May 11, 2013, 13:57
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jshell wrote: This is where the EU is heading and why we MUST leave it asap. The EU is moving fast towards a Communistic horror. Not going to bother replying to this paranoid and clueless tirade tbh, except to say those words don't mean what you think they mean. Communistic ? Moron. Read the communist manifesto and stop confusing communism with the state capitalist systems that Russia and China had. Oh go on then. The big fucking point is that I do not fucking want a govt of this country to be allowed to run itself, nor to set all its laws own laws without the checks and balances Europe provides.I don't want to see our economy fucked beyond all repair by being charged/punished when trading with Europe. Yes the EU is fucked, so ? Pulling out of it will not help at all. Not remotely, so stop being silly. The mess is less to do with the EU and more to do with a bunch of cunts playing the derivatives market for their own ends. If you want to talk undemocratic power, they are the undemocratic power, banks. Not fucking European Ministers riding the gravy train. Get some perspective. Apart from UKIP even the most ardent euro sceptic on the right would never be dumb enough to actually pull us out of Europe. But hey, why not ? It would speed along a revolution here when we're all fucked after all ;) Edit : you sound like one of those American Tea Party nutters who think communism and fascism are the same thing. Oh wait.. my mind has just remembered your previous posts and conspiracy theory promting babble. I shouldn't have bothered replying really.
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stray 2057 posts |
May 11, 2013, 14:16
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What is happening in Spain and in Cyprus could happen here. It may still happen. It has nothing to do with the Euro.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited May 11, 2013, 14:59
May 11, 2013, 14:54
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jshell wrote: I disagree about Europe. I want us out and I want us out now. I currently live in Norway and they laugh at the UK. Norway has more trade with Europe than us but remains outside the EU in terms of stupid laws, financial controls and downright fuckwittery. Personally I disagree with your position on the EU for a bunch of reasons. What I don't understand is why people can't debate the issue without plucking imaginary facts from the air. It's really quite disheartening. The claim that "Norway has more trade with Europe than us" is just nonsense. Of the highest order. It can be massaged to fit reality if you talk about trade per capita, but as we'll see given the deficits involved - that cuts both ways. The last year for which we have full figures is 2011. During that year, Norway exported a total of €46.6bn in goods to the EU and €20.9bn in services. That's a total of €67.5bn. During the same year, they imported €93.5bn in goods and €11.4bn in services; a total of €104.9bn. So you're looking at total trade figures of around €172bn (incorporating a deficit of €37.4bn). Figures from here. --------------- The UK in 2011, exported £158bn to the EU (or €187bn at today's exchange rate). Imports for the same year were £202bn (€240bn). So total UK trade with the EU for 2011 was €427bn (with a deficit of €53bn). Figures taken from spreadsheets downloaded here These numbers dwarf the Norwegian trade figures. --------------- Of course, you can argue that Norway has a tiny population in comparison with the UK. Very true. But let's take a look at what that actually implies for the trade deficits of both nations. With Norway's population at approx 5m, their trade deficit with the EU works out at: €7,480 per person For the UK, with a population of 62.5m, the trade deficit with the EU is: €848 per person Suddenly your claim that "Norway has more trade with Europe than us" isn't looking all that solid (either on a per capita basis, or in raw numbers) Ultimately though that's of little relevance when you take a look at the composition of Norway's exports. Over 55% of Norway's exports to the EU is crude oil / natural gas or their derivatives. This compares with 18% for the UK. And crucially, the giant North Sea oil and gas fields have peaked and entered decline. Norway's miraculous trade figures are based on a one-off geological bounty that is coming to an end. I do not deny that Norway is punching above its weight as far as population Vs exports is concerned. But just as Ireland punched above its weight throughout the noughties thanks to a property boom that has now left us devastated, so Norway's export activity will essentially collapse along with their oil output. In fairness to the Norwegians, they have seen this coming and are better prepared for their bubble to burst than were the Irish. But to suggest that Norway's past success is in any way tied to their non-EU status is fantasy. And to suggest this success will outlive their hydrocarbon boom is highly dubious.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
May 11, 2013, 16:26
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jshell wrote: Just watching what's happening now in Spain, courtesy of the beloved EU. I think you'll find Spain took the Euro money because it was the cheapest deal available.
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geoffrey_prime 758 posts |
May 17, 2013, 03:20
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yes. And to Larry, I am not making "political" comments. But I think this is my last "comment".
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Edited May 17, 2013, 11:03
May 17, 2013, 10:01
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Thing with Farage is, he may or may not be right to agitate the European stuff, but many forget at his heart he is also as grassroots Tory as Tory can be. If you didn't support Thatcher, as you suggest, you most certainly will be making up for any shortfall there by supporting his lot. BTW what happened to him in Edinburgh is disgraceful, especially those nasty little nats shouting to him to 'get back to England'. We've got that shit to put up with up here 'til the puss-filled overstuffed boil that is Salmond is burst once and for all. Another matter though! EDIT: Seems 'protestors' (how long now has that word been bastardised?) are from something called the 'Radical Independence' movement. Salmond was asked to condemn actions, which he should, since he and Sturgeon are about the only buggers you constantly see supporting no more UK. Instead he found it laughable. More likely sitting eating cream cakes punching the air thinking to himself, 'yes!'. x
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CraigR 479 posts |
May 18, 2013, 22:47
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I was hoping to find a reply here ;-)
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jshell 333 posts |
May 22, 2013, 14:41
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Thanks for the well considered post, and the numbers did make me re-think in terms of the trade figures. Unlike many posters, I’m always open to correction. It's worth noting though, that Norway is more than a one-trick-pony in that it exports vast quantities of fish, shipping and is the EU's largest supplier of aluminium, amongst other metals. On the point of relevance though, I disagree with you that the North Sea oil and gas fields have peaked. Well, perhaps those existing ones, but STATOIL have made some utterly massive finds in the last few years and the proportion of continental shelf that has been explored so far is very small – something like 15%. Those new finds have not been developed yet and are the reason for the utter jobs boom in Norway. Norway’s gas production is and will be huge for a very long time to come. The value of that export will depend on the actuality of the shale gas deposits being found in various European area countries though as shale gas has been responsible for US gas prices dropping in price by 2/3’s. If NE of England shale gas stacks up to expectations, then Norway may see export values drop, despite those large finds. Norway is also being used for the development of subsea gas processing technology that will allow very long step-outs into the Arctic waters and even under the ice cap, if need be. In general terms, I know from the past that you’ve spoken about peak reserves issues, but I disagree with you. Proven hydrate reserves total more hydrocarbons than have ever been found to date. Once those are tapped we will have supplies for the foreseeable future and at least enough to allow the development of future energy technologies. Ironically, the Man Made-up Global Warming scare has even put clean burn coal technology back on the tables... You couldn’t have made that up. On the EU though, we will also disagree. Norway is protected from the carnage that is ensuing in that it’s a bit more financially protected than most countries. The reason I want to see the UK leave the EU is that it has been plain to the most backward of thinkers that you cannot peg high and low performing economies together without the string eventually being snapped. That’s what we are seeing here now. There are more and more people from Greece to France that want to see an end to this false economic mill-stone. We have had trade agreements prior to the single currency and we will have agreements after the single currency. Germany still needs markets for its cars, and that won’t disappear with the single currency experiment. The reason I brought up Norway in the first place is that they still trade with the EU and are part of Schengen without having most of the fuckwittery that goes with being a member!
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jshell 333 posts |
May 22, 2013, 14:48
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sanshee wrote: Thing with Farage is, he may or may not be right to agitate the European stuff, but many forget at his heart he is also as grassroots Tory as Tory can be. If you didn't support Thatcher, as you suggest, you most certainly will be making up for any shortfall there by supporting his lot. BTW what happened to him in Edinburgh is disgraceful, especially those nasty little nats shouting to him to 'get back to England'. We've got that shit to put up with up here 'til the puss-filled overstuffed boil that is Salmond is burst once and for all. Another matter though! EDIT: Seems 'protestors' (how long now has that word been bastardised?) are from something called the 'Radical Independence' movement. Salmond was asked to condemn actions, which he should, since he and Sturgeon are about the only buggers you constantly see supporting no more UK. Instead he found it laughable. More likely sitting eating cream cakes punching the air thinking to himself, 'yes!'. x The difficulty is separating any of them now from each other! Farage may be Tory at heart, but I support his EU views. However, Labour have positioned themselves almost in Tory heartland political thinking too so I'm left loooking at the issues that matter to me only. A big one is Europe as I think that either Tory or Labour will seriously bugger the UK, perhaps in slightly different ways. Is there a viable alternative anywhere????? I'm Scottish too, but also no lover of the Independence movement. I prefer the Union, for all of its faults. However, Salmond has a winner on his hands. Even if he loses a referendum, he can stand up, puff his chest, and say: 'At least I was good enough to give you a say and now I'll go with your wishes'. That will give him a huge boost and he'll prob go for devo-max instead. We could be stuck with him...well, you, I live in Norway for the forseeable! :-)
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