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Merrick 2148 posts |
Sep 05, 2002, 15:14
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Earlier in this thread, you said "you sell your labour, or you exploit other peoples labour" as a quick and easy way to define class. Surely everyone does both? In my last 'proper' job, my manager had three tiers of management above her within sight of her desk! She was under *such* pressure, clearly downtrodden from above, and all for a shitty feckin wage that was below what I used to earn as a menial farm labourer. Yet she would be 'middle class' cos she's a team leader? Also, in consumer society we are in a position of control over other peoples labour because we buy/don't buy what they produce. Can someone who fits your definition of 'working class' who goes and buys, say, a CD player made by 15 year olds on 14 hour shifts in China or some sewatshop trainers honestly be said to be not exploiting other peoples labour? Just cos they're paying someone else to ship it to them doesn't mean they're not directly responsible, any more than a person who hires acontract killer is innocent of murder. These definitions are too clumsy, I can't find anyone they actually fit. I have to side with Grufty Jim and FourWinds on this, these phrases - while they may once have had meaning - nowadays seems at best anachronisitc and at worst a device to keep people divided.
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Sep 05, 2002, 15:20
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From George Orwell's review of 'Workers Front' by Fenner Brockway, published in New English Weekly, 17 February 1938. ======================== It is a pity that he tends to use the expression 'working class' in a rather narrow and restricted sense, being, like nearly all socialist writers, too much dominated by the concept of a 'proletarian' as a manual labourer. In all western countries there now exists a huge middle class whose interests are identical with those of the proletariat but which is quite unaware of this fact and usually sides with its capitalist enemy in moments of crisis. There is no doubt that this is partly due to the tactlessness of socialist propaganda. Perhaps the best thing one can wish the socialist movement at this moment is that it should shed some of its 19th century phraseology.
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 05, 2002, 15:39
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again, not my experience of prague the coaches (from sheffield) were organised by a committee which included, but wasn't dominatred by, the swp. they too turned up only on the day of the main march. and they left soon afterwards - something to do with people having jobs to get back to i believe cos i flew in, like loads of other people, i was there earlier - and later. i went to loads of meetings around the convergence centre where swp members took part and organised activities and meetings. before and after the main demo.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Sep 05, 2002, 15:44
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That's good that!
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 05, 2002, 16:11
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o damn me and my oversimplifications yes of course you are right that there are people 'stuck' between the two classes - traditionally known as the petty bourgeoisie. they could be the self-employed, or, as merrick says in one of those shitty 'team leader' type posts. they are, as i think you implied, a fairly deliberate attempt at making more people involved and thus COMPLICIT within the whole system of capitalism. however, they are still the minority of jobs. even in my place - which goes for all this new managerialism bullshit bigtime - there are only three people in that kind of role, plus one 'big boss' and twenty workers. in this case most of the middle layer side with the big boss - they are all careerist wanker scum. However that's not always the case. BUT, and its a big but (thats why i put it in capitals) these people have no real INDEPENDENT position, they will always fal down on the side of those 'above' or those 'below' them - normally the former sadly, but thats only because the working class is so damn weak at the moment according to surveys nigh on 70% of the UK population describe themselves as working-class - thats the largest number who have EVER done so apparently. We live in a world, and more particularly in a country (well those of us in the UK do anyway) where divisions are growing by the day - Britain is now the most economically divided it has ever been according to the stats. The rich get richer whilst the poor get pooreer. That sounds to me like a world/country where class is still incredibly alive and strong.
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 05, 2002, 16:17
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as a consumer what power do i really have? not that much i dont think. no, i dont agree for one second that someone who buys somethying made in a sweatshop is exploiting the worker who made it. why not? because that consumer is not benefitting from that workers exploitation. for one thing they have little real choice in what kind of product to buy (if they want that product), and secondly, and most importantly, because they are in no way benefitting from that exploitation. You would (I would guess) argue that they are getting the item cheaper than if the worker were paid a 'fair' wage, but i don't think that's true. Just because peoipla re paid less doesn't mean the goods cost less, no it tends to mean the mother fucker that owns the company makes bigger profits. benefitting nobody but themselves. i think ther is a grea tdanger of moralism developinbg from what you say ther, leading some people to adopting a 'pure' lifestyle 'uncontaminated' by practises they see as exploitative, when all they are actually doing is shoving there heads in the sand and ignoruing matters
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Sep 05, 2002, 19:59
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damn straight! The thing is; i actually agree with much of the substance behind what necropolist says. Not all of it, of course, but that's cool, 'cos we're different people and can be civil to one another, and indeed become friends, despite differences of opinion... no need to toe a party line, eh? HOWEVER. Despite agreeing with where necropolist is coming from (a dismay at the injustice that surrounds us; a wish to address the inequitable distribution of resources; and a rejection of the idea that most of my life should be spent making someone else rich; right?). Despite feeling such similar things, the far left chooses to make its struggle contingent upon "class". In doing so, it quite deliberately excludes me. I'm not working class. That's just the way it is. I'm not rich or anything... but there's no definition of 'working class' that i'm aware of that will hold me. And if there were? I'd reject it completely. Cos not only am i not working class; i don't want to be working class. I am not "a worker". I'm a human being. I'm a decent enough writer of prose. I'm a dreadful poet. I'm a huge fan of Talking Heads. I'm a shade over 6'1''. I'm male and i'm from Ireland originally, and i'm many many things. But i'd rather eat my own flesh than label myself "a worker". So the "workers revolution" excludes me. Or if it doesn't then the left is defining things pretty damn loosely. I perceive the same problems (and i see some problems where they don't... and vice versa), and i too wish to affect a change, to address some of those problems. But whereas i want any person who feels the same to help in whatever way they can; the left only wants "workers"... a clique... and only wants them if they toe the party line. And necropolist; if you say "but that's not the case.. we *are* inclusive and we *are* open to internal debate and non-hierarchical change", then please drop the 19th century language. I ain't a worker. I work, sure, but i will never join an organisation that defines me as "one who does a job". Cos frankly... that's just a corporation; and i've already spent enough of my life in them to know that i don't need that level of dehumanisation in my life. groove on.
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Sep 05, 2002, 21:31
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Before I start, I'd just like to say that I've been aeway a lot in recent months, so my time on HH has been sporadic. It's fuckin great to be around for a few days in a row, I'd forgotten what an excellent exchange of ideas and angles goes on here. Every - literally EVERY - other board I see is solely for chest beating and name calling. I love the way HH has respect but doesn't let that stray into being too polite to roll up our sleeves and wrestle with ideas. Thankyou folks. ==================== Right then. A consumer is directly responsible for the production of the products they buy. In what way do we have "little real choice in what kind of product to buy"? Have you seen how many types of shoe/crisps/book/radio there are ?? I do indeed argue that in many cases the consumer gets a product cheaper than if the worker got a fair wage. You're dead right that just because people are paid less doesn't mean the goods cost less, (as every Indonesian made £100 pair of Nike will show), but it *does* mean that everything that's ridiculously cheap is cheap for a simple reason. How can it be that I see, say, T shirts made in China retailing for £1, except that they are made by people in appalling conditions? It's not a matter of having moral purity untainted by exploitation, it's the consumer dimension to the fundamental problem of our culture: We are so divorced from our environment, we see things appear as if from nowhere, and when we put things in a bin or out of an exhaust pipe they magically disappear. If we are to find a solution to all this is has to be by realising that there are sources and consequences for all our consumption, and that we - all of us - have been duped into depending on the stuff that ruins us. This applies to so many things on so many levels. And one of them is that the person who buys sweatshop goods is the demand for those goods, they are a partner with the sweatshop owner in the exploitation of the sweatshop workers. And that applies to absolutely all of us.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 09:18
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Yes number 6 :-)
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 09:31
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v v briefly, honest guv..... i obviously compoletely understand any desire not to be defined by something that you probably hate - ie your job. but i do also think that we can't avoid it, yet. the aim (my aim) is to create a world where we can be defineed by our thoughts and our actions. but also, i'm not ashamed of working. i work a lot - most of it when vi'm not actually in paid employment. work is an act of creativity (even call centre or conveyor belt jobs allow for some creativity) and creativity is what human beings are best at (or at least one of the things were best at). and we should be proud of what we create
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