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Squid Tempest 8763 posts |
Aug 20, 2010, 10:11
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Merrick wrote: Squid and Dave both say that the exploitation is a good reason to remove the prohibition. Yet the things we've been comparing it to, such as Nike sweatshops and iPad factories, are all legal. Removing prohibition would give us the chance of some regulation and fair trade brands and whatnot, but we need only look at how slavery is still part of the chocolate, coffee and tea industries to guess how much legalisation would end exploitation. A good point. Nonetheless, just because other industries haven't managed to eradicate slave labour doesn't mean that legalisation wouldn't be a good thing. Obviously slavery should be stopped whereever it is found, and I would imagine that it would be easier to eradicate (or at least reduce) if the people running the industry weren't organised crime syndicates. Having said that, I think it possibly highlights the similarity between organised criminals and the big corporations!
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Aug 20, 2010, 11:19
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pooley wrote: handofdave wrote: Yeah, yeah, whatever you say. What a clever trap you've caught me in. Oh my, you've really got me now. Wasn't trying to catch you with anything. I don't know you, or your values. I don't know anything about you. (apart from what you post on here, still you can't be all bad). What is wrong with asking people to display the same ethical values when buying this, as they would for any other product. Your anger at this shows your hypocrisy. Will you only buy cannabis from ethical sources? It is one of the simplest things you can do. Surely. You obviously set out to ensnare all us 'hypocrites', Pooley, for whatever reason. I get mine from sources that are ethical. I don't know that every baggie I ever purchased lived up to that standard. WTF is with the 'hypocrisy' label? You are blasting people for (allegedly) having a double standard while admitting that you don't always know that what you buy is untainted yourself. Don't call me a fucking hypocrite and then try to act friendly. Fuck you.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Aug 20, 2010, 11:28
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It's occurred to me, naturally, that legalization would have it's downside, namely the corporate commodification of the stuff and all that that entails. However, the human toll that prohibition causes now, I think in the balance, is worse. Criminalization breeds gangs, violence, and of course, prisons full of people that shouldn't be there.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Aug 20, 2010, 11:38
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As always, you have good things to say. My beef with Pooley is that he's attempting to hold others to a standard that he admits he doesn't always live up to himself. I object to being labeled a 'hypocrite' because I pointed this out. It seems to me he's making a bigger deal out of 'catching hypocrites' than the story itself.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited Aug 20, 2010, 12:12
Aug 20, 2010, 11:41
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Merrick wrote: Squid and Dave both say that the exploitation is a good reason to remove the prohibition. Yet the things we've been comparing it to, such as Nike sweatshops and iPad factories, are all legal. Removing prohibition would give us the chance of some regulation and fair trade brands and whatnot, but we need only look at how slavery is still part of the chocolate, coffee and tea industries to guess how much legalisation would end exploitation. Some good points, Merrick, but there is a significant difference between a legalised pot "industry" and iPads or coffee. Namely the fact that cannabis can be produced at low cost by the smokers themselves (not many people capable of knocking together their own iPad or mobile phone). I know most smokers wouldn't grow themselves, but I suspect most would be no more than two people removed from someone who'd happily do so for beer and rent money. This is the ideal product for an efficient cottage industry. Pooley's been making some perfectly good points on this thread. Points I've agreed with. But there's also been an element of "you people buy slave-grown cannabis" in his posts, despite most people here being quite clear that they don't. I'm also extremely sceptical of the prevalence of this child-labour phenomenon. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but if it was widespread then the police would be falling over themselves to provide official figures. Instead we have a statement it's happening, followed immediately by a figure for the total number of farms. Sorry, but my media-bullshit detector starts wailing whenever I see something like that. Also, while your rationale for why it might be a good strategy for criminals has merit, there are also reasons why it's not a great strategy (plus there's an insconsistency in the story itself). Child labour in manufacturing situations works because the child is constantly occupied with a task requiring their attention. This isn't the case with growing pot which requires maybe an hour a day of actual work. It's easier (and cheaper! no food costs and you can use their sleeping area to grow more pot) to set up automated systems to feed plants. That's just a fact; I've known plenty of pot growers who'd laugh out loud at the idea of taking the extra risk of having trafficked kids locked in a house, as opposed to setting up a simple pump and timer system. Yes, some idiots probably are using child labour, but the vast majority are smart enough to install a few 24-hour loop timers. Everyone I've ever known whose grown more than a couple of plants at a time does this. Maybe they use trafficked kids for harvesting, but that entails feeding and housing children for use three days out of every 10 weeks or so. As I say, there's just no way this is prevalent (unlike the use of children in manufacturing sweatshops, which clearly is prevalent and which almost all of us are guilty of inadvertently supporting at some point). Plus one more small point -- the inconsistency in the article -- the BBC report is adamant that the kids are kept locked in the house and never permitted outside, with food being brought in. It then goes on to say that they kids are often used to attack the grow operations set up by rivals. Unless those rival operations are in the basement of the same house, that's at the very least, sloppy reporting. Anyway, as I said, pooley is right to highlight this issue and I've agreed completely with the substance of what he wrote. But if he didn't start calling people "fucking hypocrites"; people who possibly don't even smoke pot or who might live outside the UK or who might grow their own or get it from a friend; then I suspect he'd have gotten a less defensive response.
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dee 1955 posts |
Aug 20, 2010, 12:01
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I would still like to see proof of these kids......
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Edited Aug 20, 2010, 14:44
Aug 20, 2010, 14:42
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Regarding the localised thing: I hear what you're saying about localised production, but then Megacorp has the benefit of economies of scale. Thus we see lots of things that can be done cheaply locally being done on massive scale in far-off lands and imported. We can all brew our own beer easily for next to nothing, but almost none of us do. And the shops are full of imported stuff that undercuts much of the domestic craft stuff. My guess is the cannabis market would go the same way. not that I'm advocating prohibition, far from it. I'd rather have Nestle cannabis than stuff sprayed with unknown chemicals, paying no tax, organised by beatings and killings. Regarding child labour: I wasn't saying I think that's happening, I was saying that the illegal immigrant thing is. Certainly, lighting and heating can be regulated automatically, but the watering and spraying for pests is a hand-done thing. The child labour thing seems less likely to be common for all the reasons you cite.
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pooley 501 posts |
Aug 20, 2010, 14:52
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One small correction, I was not trying to befriend you! I was saying that I know nothing about you apart from what I read here. I also said that despite that you can't be all bad. Maybe I was wrong about the last bit. Certainly seems that way. Fuck you too, hypocrite.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited Aug 20, 2010, 17:25
Aug 20, 2010, 15:00
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Merrick wrote: I wasn't saying I think that's happening, I was saying that the illegal immigrant thing is. Certainly, lighting and heating can be regulated automatically, but the watering and spraying for pests is a hand-done thing. Just a quick point. Pest spraying has to be done by hand, but from what I've seen (first hand), watering can be done quite easily using a timed pump. You just need to fill a reservoir with water and a dash of nutrients once every few days and the timer does the rest. I've seen this system set up in a large scale grow room and in the house of a bloke who only grew 15-20 plants at a time. Not saying every grower does this, but it's a damn sight safer, cheaper and easier than smuggling a kid into the country from Vietnam and then keeping them prisoner for months in a house.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Aug 20, 2010, 15:02
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handofdave wrote: Don't call me a fucking hypocrite and then try to act friendly. Fuck you. pooley wrote: Fuck you too, hypocrite. Jeez guys, does it need to descend to this level?
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