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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 11:19
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This kinda makes our ideals seem like shit. A somewhat biased article - in a very carefully written way (I think) http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_2066000/2066788.stm
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 11:22
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Some good points well put. >> The tribe & the chief may have been more >> symbiotic than a purely exploitative >> arrangement. I think that this may be possible and may have been probable in *some* societies that were isolated from external pressures.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 11:28
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As a footnote to the above article. I work with a couple of Russian guys who are thoroughly enjoying having some money and being able to buy whatever food they want and having their own bathroom and not living in a two roomed house with their in-laws etc...... One of them, despite him enjoying the 'good life' now is extremely bothered by the above article. He says that Russia has very little good agricultural land anyway (hence some of the problems) and this can only lead to hardships. As he so nicely put it "history teaches that all the global 'reforms' in Russia may lead anywhere." My thoughts are as follows - the only people that can buy these places in Russia will be the gangsters taht emerged and now run Moscow. I reckon we may see a lot of Russian farms growing poppies soon.
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cancer boy 977 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 12:30
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(stuck on the bottom of the thread as I've just read all the above posts) Money solves an essential problem in my life: how do I convert what I can do into cans of Tennent's Super at my local off license? Money fulfils a very handy purpose as a barter conversion system. Also, a lot of the things I have or want aren't necessary like musical instruments and so on - I try to get money to have those things so I can do stuff, rather than wanting it so I can sit in a big pile of diamonds and gold coins throwing them up in the air and running them through my fingers. The thought of living in a 'free Lada and sack of rice for everyone and each week you can have a bottle of champagne/box of chocolates/quartz watch (delete as not applicable) if you plead your case successfully to the central committee' society fills me with dread. Even when I lived on the two pences down the back of the sofa I had the freedom to spend them on 10 Embassy Filters rather than squander them on food.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 12:30
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> > Only in the rich countries [people very reliant > upon capitalism], which is a MINORITY of the > planet's population. the MAJORITY of the > world's population are actually the exploited > victims of global capitalism. All the power is in > the hands of a very small elite of people who > have a vested interest in keeping the status > quo. > this is a big debate, and i don't have time to address it in its entirety just now. But i'd like to pick you up on the above statement Lord Lucan. Because it's completely untrue. Sadly. The majority of the world's population are indeed the exploited victims of global capitalism (i mean, you're unlikely to hear me arguing against that, let's face it); but that is not inconsistent with them having become dependent upon it. There is a point of view that the planet we live on can sustain a population of a certain size of humans, and no larger. This view has fallen in and out of favour (and has been co-opted by some dodgy folks to justify extreme views, tainting it somewhat); but is essentially just common sense. Whether you think we're near that number right now, or not, clearly the planet cannot support an infinite number of people - so somewhere between 1 and infinity is the maximum number. It appears that this number can be increased through a reduction in biodiversity. Though probably not by very much (and who knows what the side-effects of such a reduction in biodiversity might be... though i suspect we shall find out at some point). So, preamble over; the two studies i have read which attempt to quantify / estimate just what the maximum number is... what the earth's carrying capacity for our race might be... have both arrived at numbers significantly below our current global population. The discrepancy; the ability of our planet to carry more than it's maximum carrying capacity; is provided by industrialism and global trade. There are 6 billion of us now. You cannot spread us out; give us all a plot of arable land, and tell us to grow our own food. There's too many of us for that. So centralised, mass food production is required. And this is NOT just in the affluent west. Anyone who thinks that has never lived in Cairo or Sao Paulo, or spent time in Mexico City. Has never read into the *really* scary food problems staring China in the face as we speak. Has never grasped that the majority of the food consumed in the "third world" is produced in massive industrial farms (using petroleum based fertilisers - increasing yields massively) by multi-national conglomerates. The project of globalisation is not in its infancy, y'know. It's been going on since the Marshall Plan (and possibly before). The world is not set up the way it should be. i am very well aware of that fact. But it just doesn't follow that because much of the world is a victim of global capitalism, that it's removal would be a good idea for them (i can't think of a medical analogy, but i'm sure there is one) until something that fulfills the essential roles it has co-opted is put in place. Look into the additional food production enabled by industrialised production / distribution techniques and fossil-fuel fertilisers. Then look at when these things were introduced. Then look at the change in global population since then. Then imagine how that increase would cope with the removal of the support system which allowed it in the first place. Then. Well, if you're like me, then you just weep.
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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 12:34
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The land is owned by the state in Russia & not the people.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 12:37
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in my first reply, i say that Lord Lucan's comment: > > Only in the rich countries [people very reliant > upon capitalism], which is a MINORITY of the > planet's population. the MAJORITY of the > world's population are actually the exploited > victims of global capitalism. All the power is in > the hands of a very small elite of people who > have a vested interest in keeping the status > quo. > "is completely untrue". That's just bollocks. It's almost completely true. i was actually trying to say simply that the implication that despite that being true it is NOT true to say that the victimised majority are not also dependent upon the system that victimises them. This isn't a difficult thing to grasp. i'd argue that most of us here; when you imagine how life *could* be; can be seen as victims of capitalism in one form or another... we still depend on it to eat though.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 12:38
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not any more, i don't believe. Private ownsership may not be widespread, but it is a fact of life in post-communist Russia. Sadly it is mostly the violent gangsters who are wealthy enough to afford it.
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stray 2057 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 13:00
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Agreed. So, instead of disinventing money just remove the profit motive entirely by having everything state/people owned. 100% employment, no competition within sectors, jobs for life, no over exploitation of resources, no one going hungry. Keep using money to get goods & foods, with 100% employment (and if you remove competition and produce only to fulfil need we'll prolly all only be working 4-5 hours a week) everyone could afford to get by. Co-operatives, soviets, that isn't really important, whereas removing the profit motive is. Oh, and of course, housing has to be free.
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stray 2057 posts |
Jun 26, 2002, 13:01
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Have money but make profit illegal. Hmm... I'll have to think this one thru more, seems like a go-er at the moment. Help me, can anyone spot a flaw in this ?
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