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necropolist 1689 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 12:11
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mmmm, i dunno about that article at all really. for one thing its just modern day malthusianism (is that a word?) for another it is assuming that nothing is going to change, and surely a moneyless society will have undergone vast changes that are not just about 'money' as far as food goes, producing for 6.5billionb is possible today, many scientists say we could produce for 10billion readsonably easilly, without thje need for Gm crops even. there are of course many other things than food that human beings need though, and physically fitting all those people in somewhere would be rather difficult!! but, with this massively changed world, assuming it is one where some kind of economic justice prevails, then there would be little reason to think the population would continue to grow in such a way. the experience of western history indicates that populations grow when people are poor, and then growth slows, halts or even reverses once there is sufficeint wealth. so if we're worried about over-population, make sure people have a decent standards of life, and the problem will largely take care of itself! as for what we replace capitalism with, well, its got to be libertarian communism for me, but as for what that actuallty MEANS.....
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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 12:54
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Lord Lucan's right when he speaks of inequality. It is sometimes easy to get sucked in to the Blair talk of Globalisation benefitting everyone (who has become frightening Evangelical in the cause of Western Iperialism since Sept 11th - but I digress). I'm reading John Pilger's book 'The New Rulers of the World' and there is a chapter dealing with Indonesia, which prior to 1998 had been used as a 30 year blueprint for Globalisation. The conditions in the 'factories' amount to forced Labour camps. Millions & Millions are getting worse & worse off. Many in the West don't realise it. People in developing countries are producing goods which are owned by global corporations. They can be building Information Technology goods, but these are owned by western corporations. They don't own the goods they produce, nor the means of production so any Wealth Created flows directly to a rich corporate elite.
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stray 2057 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 13:14
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Cutting thru the crap with a damn good slogan. 'From each according to their means, to each according to their needs' sounds like yr after Anarchist Communism there monkeyboy. You get my vote. course it'll have to be an international system, it'll never work in a single nation state. And one step away from the disinvention of money is the complete removal of state. hurrah!! Got my utopian hat on today.
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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 13:28
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When a total change (revolution - but not in the Authoritarian Left sense) does take place a majority would have to support change in some way. It would have to be a Libertarian Socialist revolution and not some elite seizing power in a coup (eg. The Bolshevik revolution). The point is that the new social organisations that take over would have to exist in an embryonic form before this. A revolution would have to be a clean break with what had been before. The community and people as a whole should democratically own the means of production and not some State bureacracy. Replacing common ownership with nationalisation was always a bad idea. I don't want to dream what a future world will be like. There will be plenty of time to work out what it would be like closer to the time. Necropolist is right when he says food items will go off. What would be the point of stocking a fridge with more milk than you need - it will just go off. There may be some overconsumption at first but most people should be more enlightened by then and a total change will help get rid of the concept of greed. Capitalist society places emphasis on money for the sake of money rather than money as a means of obtaining what people need - so it just creates greed. Human nature is more human behaviour - the way someones behaviour is determined is by external reality. So if the system around them is based on greed so a human will develop greedy attributes. Lets not forget that there has never been a total change anywhere under capitalism. So called Communist revolutions have always been about an elite (a new capitalist class) running things (with a state monoply rather than a private monoply). The state should serve no purpose after a revolution. Communities will organise to administer - not to Govern! The old capitalist means of production, distibution and exchange would have to be used by the people initialy so there may be some period of change over. But money will be useless as a means of obtaining needs virtually straight away and the quicker it becomes completely worthless the better. Four Winds - the trouble with vouchers for goods is they can just become a new form of money. Ther will be no need for rationing, especially for items of basic needs. Not meanig to sound as If Im delivering a sermon. Just trying to discuss & raise some important ideas. Peace & Love MonkeyBoy
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 13:34
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Surely we are so trapped in a capitalist society that it's almost impossible to imagine there could be an alternative. That's how the system is set up - not even in a 'conspiracy' way - it's just that once it gets set up it's self perpetuating. People think they need all these pollution-producing products to make them happy (cars, trainers, new THINGS every five minutes) because they're constantly told that consuming is the way to be happy. It's hard to break out of that way of thinking (let's face it, half the reason I am able to try and break out is because I can't afford to consume like that). There was a lot to be said for (yeah and against) the communist countries of eastern europe, the people had a lot provided for them, and life didn't necessarily get any easier once capitalism arrived. With everything geared to growth and profit, how can you think of getting rid of the system - it won't let you get a foothold on it, because what you're proposing is total heresy. You can't get power because you don't toe the line. If you did get into power and then came out with your heretical views you'd get thrown out. In a small scale society you can grow enough food and live in a 'fair' way. Perhaps you just can't do it in a large society because the bastards you would otherwise throw out are great enough in numbers to take over the show. - on another train of thought, anyone part of a LETS scheme? that does away with money on a small scale.
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MonkeyBoy 1008 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 14:30
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Who said anything about anyone wanting to get into power. The people should empower them selves through direct democracy - any administrators etc should be accountable & mandated by people. That means abolishing the state and any Capitalist ideas of government. Also true change can only come about when a majority hold 'heretical' views. Your so right when you say that to hide what you believe in and suddenley come out with it when your in a position of authority will result in people throwing you out (hiding true objectives is something the Lenist & Trotsyist groups advocate). People should be educated - so there is a large amounts of heretics. Also capitalism is not some system which will be able to reconcile all it's contradictions. A large number of scientists predict that environmentally life will become intolerable sometime this century. This will mean even an intolerable existence even for those currently benefitting from capitalism. Globalisations increasing monoply and unfettered free enterprise will inevitably lead to greater contradictions within it (such as said environmental catastrophe), so Global capitalism will sow the seeds of it's own downfall. The millions of people in third world labour camps are only gonna take the Corporate crap for so long. Even though they do not have the means of organisation we have over here, one day their gonna say 'F*ck this'. The Corporations may hold all the money but the third world could easily take the means of production from them if they really wanna. Yours Gnostically MonkeyBoy ps - I am not a member of any organisation or party and haven't been as such for over 14 years.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 14:46
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>> the trouble with vouchers for goods is they can just become a new form of money. Ther will be no need for rationing, especially for items of basic needs. << Exactly. Glad you agree that this would be a shit idea. In my statement I was taking into account that greed is inherent in mankind - and I truly believe it is - therefor my arguments come into play because there will always be greed no matter what social structure (or non-structure) you have. We got into this current capitalist state of affairs through greed. It did not breed the initial greed. By the same argument I don't believe that you can say that greed will disappear once you desolve a capitalist system. There will always be a greedy element to society and once they do not have to grred for money they will go for something else because it's in their nature. Will it become a crime to be greedy? If so what is the punishment to be? Like yourself I would love to see a world free of these things (suffering and hunger and such) and offer these points for discussion because these issues bother me and (I think) stand in the way of progress towards me ever being able to say ... "this is a good way to exist".
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stray 2057 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 15:35
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How can greed work when there's no possibility of having more than the other person ? Plus, is greed really part of human nature or is it a logical response to the way our current society functions ? The anthropologists of the world are out on this one. For every strange far flung tribe of ppl with a system functioning without greed there is also another far flung tribe that relies on it for growth.
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 15:38
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For what sort of growth do you mean?
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Jun 25, 2002, 15:56
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>> is greed really part of human nature .. ? Yes. I am cynical enough to believe it is. Once people have all the food they need and there is no money, some people will still live in houses with better views and such stuff. People will still want diamonds and stuff that will always demand a premium of some sort ... but what will that premium be made of? There will always be greed I'm afraid - it will just change its form.
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