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pooley
pooley
501 posts

Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 14:50
shanshee_allures wrote:
Yeah I know the roots of the expression but it is also used by whites in the manner I speak of, and that's what I'm referring to.

It wasn't just black people attacking Sachmo for his 'brow wiping' antics and even Ainsley blimmin Harriot's been on the wrong end of that one.

As I said shocking.

Damn though I started watch The Professionals again last year. There I said it. The only time (well that and Minder) that ITV gets any of my custom.

Oh and Randal and Hopkirk.

:-)

x


first episode of Minder (gunfight at the ok launderette). Terry gets held hostage in afore mentioned laundry place by a couple of black fellas.
He gets arthur on the phone who says (something like) Terry, Can't believe you got hold up by a couple of niggers.

ITV4 bleep out the word.





Squid Tempest
Squid Tempest
8769 posts

Edited Feb 12, 2009, 15:08
Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:06
pooley wrote:
I did read your post, and am glad that he repented. I'm sure you will agree that he is the exception, and not the rule.But still, great.
I don't think it ruins my argument at all - It just means that one old boy, and good on him, saw the error of his ways - as a story, it's great as a statistic it is meaningless. sorry, but it is.
Ok, to add to my many other faults I am now ageist. Ok, I can lve with it if you'd like to believe that.
Try to think of them as human beings? great advice, i'll endeavour to give it a go.
I was not assuming that the elderly (or coffin dodgers, if it helps fulfill your opinion of me).
As for not doing it to make yourself feel better, I don't believe you. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm trying to be honest. I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


So where are your foolproof statistics that he was the exception not the rule? Anything to back that up? Thought not. Until that is proven I will continue to attempt to whittle away at racism bit by little bit.

And even if he was the exception, every mind opened is a victory against racism.

And, yes, you are wrong. I was not doing it to try to please myself, apart from the fact that I wouldn't be able to face myself if I didn't speak up for my own point of view. Do you prefer to keep your opinions to yourself just because it gives you an easy ride? How does that poem go?

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
stray
stray
2057 posts

Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:39
pooley wrote:

As for not doing it to make yourself feel better, I don't believe you. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm trying to be honest. I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


What on earth ? Why are you attacking somebody for doing the right thing because you don't think that their motives for doing the right thing were correct ? Seriously, please explain how this level of suspicious derision is worthwhile. A lot of us do know Squid personally, and yes you're wrong, and no it definitely isn't the first time. What the hell, your posts are just personal attacks now. Sort yourself out.

You're just doing it again aren't you ? Thrashing around trying to score points against somebody because you actually have no argument anymore. People have discussed the points you've made, found them to be shallow, hypocritical or counterproductive, or in short they just disagree with you. Rather than then simply backing off, agreeing to disagree, or sensibly defending your point.. You just stick out your tongue and attempt to continue with the weakest of Sophistry. Or we get stuff like this series of posts here, hysterically awful and ugly as they are 'Well.. I'm a better person than you, you're a fake, you only challenge (x) to make you feel better *sticks out tongue, again*' Listen to yourself, think hard about what you're saying here. Stop resorting to constructing strawmen. Stop projecting your dim view of others on any poor sod who genuinely tries to understand or debate with you when they refuse to just accept and agree with you. Just stop.

If, as you posted earlier in this thread you truly are annoyed with how its gone then lock it please, it's your thread. It would show some consistency.
pooley
pooley
501 posts

Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:42
Squid Tempest wrote:
pooley wrote:
I did read your post, and am glad that he repented. I'm sure you will agree that he is the exception, and not the rule.But still, great.
I don't think it ruins my argument at all - It just means that one old boy, and good on him, saw the error of his ways - as a story, it's great as a statistic it is meaningless. sorry, but it is.
Ok, to add to my many other faults I am now ageist. Ok, I can lve with it if you'd like to believe that.
Try to think of them as human beings? great advice, i'll endeavour to give it a go.
I was not assuming that the elderly (or coffin dodgers, if it helps fulfill your opinion of me).
As for not doing it to make yourself feel better, I don't believe you. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm trying to be honest. I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


So where are your foolproof statistics that he was the exception not the rule? Anything to back that up? Thought not. Until that is proven I will continue to attempt to whittle away at racism bit by little bit.

And even if he was the exception, every mind opened is a victory against racism.

And, yes, you are wrong. I was not doing it to try to please myself, apart from the fact that I wouldn't be able to face myself if I didn't speak up for my own point of view. Do you prefer to keep your opinions to yourself just because it gives you an easy ride? How does that poem go?

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.






Where are your statistics to prove he aint the exception? anything to back that up? thought not.
and DO continue to whittle away against racism, i utterly respect it and think it is a worthwhile venture. Choose your targets better though, eh? the younger generation are the ones to go for- the elderly aint gonna be here much longer.
And I agree, that even though he is an exception, he is a good one. I did say it was great in the previous post.

Ok, the main point of my argument is this (getting away from the fact that you have called me uninterested in racism, ageist and a dehumaniser of the old!!) Racism is a terrible thing - we know that. A racist is a bad person - we know that. There are degrees of racism - we don't all agree with that, Golliwogs are not the problem - some agree with that. People from the older generations often don't see anything wrong with casual racism - they don't hate blacks or whoever, but see nothing wrong with describing them in ways we would consider racist.

This is where i sometimes would keep my opinions t myself. When grandad said what he did about the black nurse I smiled and said, that's good, as long as she is looking after you - would you have said to a man not long left for this world - ah, let me tell you why you are wrong to say that - ok, i'll wait till you've stopped coughing up blood.????

and as for that fucking poem!!!!!!!!!
everyone drags that bloody thing out to prove a point or two, for fucks sake i saw sting do it. STING!!!!!!!
Squid Tempest
Squid Tempest
8769 posts

Edited Feb 12, 2009, 15:55
Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:50
*sigh*

The point is that unless we speak out against racism, it will flourish. This is how my parents brought me up, and I still find it a good rule to live by. It is that simple. Let us drop all the personal stuff and get to the nitty gritty. As I see it, if you do not speak out against racism, you are tacitly agreeing with it. It is irrelevant what the age or sex or creed or colour of person being racist is. If you can't be straight with your own friends and relations, what hope is there?

Edit: and by the way, you said that my grandad was the exception, and made out that this made it pointless saying anything. My point was that even if there is only a small chance of changing someone's mind, it is still worth explaining what you think. So the stats are irrelevant.

As for the poem, it may have become a cliche, but those are still powerful words, and they do express quite clearly that saying/doing nothing is not an option when it comes to racism (or, I suppose more accurately in the case of the poem, facism).
pooley
pooley
501 posts

Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:50
stray wrote:
pooley wrote:

As for not doing it to make yourself feel better, I don't believe you. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm trying to be honest. I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


What on earth ? Why are you attacking somebody for doing the right thing because you don't think that their motives for doing the right thing were correct ? Seriously, please explain how this level of suspicious derision is worthwhile. A lot of us do know Squid personally, and yes you're wrong, and no it definitely isn't the first time. What the hell, your posts are just personal attacks now. Sort yourself out.

You're just doing it again aren't you ? Thrashing around trying to score points against somebody because you actually have no argument anymore. People have discussed the points you've made, found them to be shallow, hypocritical or counterproductive, or in short they just disagree with you. Rather than then simply backing off, agreeing to disagree, or sensibly defending your point.. You just stick out your tongue and attempt to continue with the weakest of Sophistry. Or we get stuff like this series of posts here, hysterically awful and ugly as they are 'Well.. I'm a better person than you, you're a fake, you only challenge (x) to make you feel better *sticks out tongue, again*' Listen to yourself, think hard about what you're saying here. Stop resorting to constructing strawmen. Stop projecting your dim view of others on any poor sod who genuinely tries to understand or debate with you when they refuse to just accept and agree with you. Just stop.

If, as you posted earlier in this thread you truly are annoyed with how its gone then lock it please, it's your thread. It would show some consistency.



Hi Stray, sit down my friend, have a glass of water and calm down!!
I'm not scoring points. And I'm not making personal attacks. Not believing someone is not a personal attack, is it? In fact, your last post has much more attacks than any of mine. That's fine, it's an honest reaction, and I thank you for it.
I don't think I'm a better person than squid (you, however!!!!) As i have said i think it's great to attack racism - I just get a bit annoyed with uber sensitivity. Ok, does that make me chubbie brown?
As for locking the thread - can I do that? how?

You have the benefit of knowing squid personally (and not just his online persona, still makes me chuckle that one!) I don't - so obviously you know his character a lot better than i do. That does make you better informed to discuss him, all i can do is respond to what I see here.

I don't want to argue, if that is what I am doing - sorry.
stray
stray
2057 posts

Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:51
Gollywog. The point is, as I heard Jeremy Hardy say, we now know that when Carol Thatch sees black people she thinks, 'Oh gollywogs'. Glad to see though that you're almost seeing the point of challenging casual racism now. Shansee, and a few others have already made the age point here though. Never mind the poem, I'm surprised I haven't seen the 'baa baa green sheep' apocrypha yet.
stray
stray
2057 posts

Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:53
pooley wrote:

As for not doing it to make yourself feel better, I don't believe you. I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm trying to be honest. I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


That is a personal attack. What does it contribute to the debate other than saying 'meh, your motives aren't pure'.
pooley
pooley
501 posts

Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:58
Squid Tempest wrote:
*sigh*

The point is that unless we speak out against racism, it will flourish. This is how my parents brought me up, and I still find it a good rule to live by. It is that simple. Let us drop all the personal stuff and get to the nitty gritty. As I see it, if you do not speak out against racism, you are tacitly agreeing with it. It is irrelevant what the age or sex or creed or colour of person being racist is. If you can't be straight with your own friends and relations, what hope is there?


To a certain extent I agree with you. The age thing i do disagree with though. A bit.
Without being ageist, I think that in a lot of older people casual racism is just something they do - they do not see anything wrong with it and it is not hateful. A black chap is a wog. Makes me cringe and I hate hearing it, but there is no malicious intent (this is a generalisation, i know - alot of old racists are hateful and mean it). What I mean(finally) is withouth malicious intent it is just a word. a vile word, but just that. when there is malicious intent it is a hate crime and needs stamping out.

Is that unreasonable - i no longer know
stray
stray
2057 posts

Re: Carol Thatch
Feb 12, 2009, 15:59
In short, squid, I and a few others think it's worthwhile to attack casual racism. You don't. That's it. Everything else is white noise in this arm of the thread. Log in through the TMA site, find thread, lock.
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