Merrick
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'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 14:24
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In the US, Representative Dana Rohrabacher has defended rendition flights for torture and said to those who oppose them 'I hope it's your family members that die'.
Freedom and democracy, don't you love them?
Hard not to respond that I hope it's Rohrabacher who gets picked up on the street, bagged and whisked off to a sweaty jail in central Asia for torture because someone thinks he might know something.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/21501
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handofdave
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Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 15:02
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Merrick wrote: Freedom and democracy, don't you love them?
Yes.
Don't confuse the stupidity of one asshole as being representational of a system. Democracy has it's flaws, but it's better than the alternatives.
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embryonomore
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Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 15:19
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Which American was it who said something along the lines of "I like the idea of a democracy, unfortunately I've never lived in one."?
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handofdave
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Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 15:25
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Like I said, it ain't perfect.
But has there ever been a 'perfect' system of governance?
I'll take the chaos and imperfections of a democracy over a dictatorship or a monarchy anyday.
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Five
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Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 16:33
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How do you feel about capitalism?
Again, in and of itself it might or might not have its virtues, but in combination with democracy it seems to have proven fatal
Oh, can't forget post-Paulian christianity, that might be the real rat poison in the stew
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handofdave
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Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 16:34
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It is ironic that America's best hopes for removing the cancer that is the right wing cabal may lie with the military... They have been systematically abused and betrayed by Bushco for private gain.
I'm not suggesting a coup, but if enough servicemen come forward and oppose Bush's war it will provide the credibility (that this country extends to those who've served) that the people on the fence, or are Bush supporters who are wavering, will respond to.
My hope is that Bush and Cheney will be impeached and imprisoned before they have a chance to sail off into the sunset with their ill-gotten gains. It's not likely to happen, due to the cowardice of politicians, but one can hope justice will actually be served for once.
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handofdave
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Edited Apr 20, 2007, 16:59
Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 16:51
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Five wrote: How do you feel about capitalism?
Again, in and of itself it might or might not have its virtues, but in combination with democracy it seems to have proven fatal
Oh, can't forget post-Paulian christianity, that might be the real rat poison in the stew
I think Capitalism, and some variants of Socialism, are fine as long as they're regulated and prevented from becoming a monster. I do believe that personal effort and ingenuity should be rewarded. (Of course, that's the argument that people make in defense of excessively large compensations for CEOs and other superrich individuals... there should DEFINITELY be limits on how much power any one person or corporation should be allowed to possess, to prevent the upsetting of true democratic process.)
The alternative, outright communism, has been pretty much discredited, don't you think? That's a system that has proved to be just as prone to corruption and abuse as Capitalism.
The great thinkers of all human history have dreamt up countless scenarios for utopian societies, none of which have come to pass because they tend to rely on an artificial model of human behavior.
Reality in the natural world and in the human sphere is messy, chaotic, imperfect, and frequently at odds with our ideals and wishes. The best we can do is try to keep a balance.
There will always be rich and poor- the mission of any civilization worth it's salt is to try and keep that gap from becoming an unhealthily wide one.
EDIT: Yes, I am saying that America is unbalanced, in case anyone wondered. This is due to the unfettered allowances given to the extremely rich... hopefully (there are signs) this is changing.
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FourWinds
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Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 18:39
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I always think that it's a real shame that the Spanish Civil War didn't end with the Anarchist's getting a power base. It would be lovely to know how it would have work ... or even if it would have worked.
Like you say, they all rely on a false idea of how people behave. Capitalism is the only one that is based on people being people ... which is very sad.
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handofdave
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Edited Apr 20, 2007, 19:39
Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 20, 2007, 19:17
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FourWinds wrote: Capitalism is the only one that is based on people being people ... which is very sad.
Where it goes wrong is when certain individuals or groups are permitted to gain too much power at the expense of others, essentially voiding the ability of the majority to take charge of their own lives. This is where the imbalances come into play, and Capitalism becomes a tool of the few in the service of greed.
The reality of anarchy, in light of the realities of human nature, is not pleasant to consider, unfortunately. Without any consensus, any common laws, any security, it'd be the law of the jungle, wouldn't it? It would work only if everyone were beneficient, decent, honest. And they aren't, or at least enough people aren't, so that the results would be catastrophic to society. If everyone could simply do whatever they pleased, the tyranny of the strong over the weak would get worse, not better.
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red peony
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Re: 'I hope it's your family members that die'
Apr 22, 2007, 15:28
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HOD, did you see this on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago?
Dissention in the Ranks, it was quite interesting.
http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/43/dissension_in_the_ranks?comment_offset=21
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