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Hob 4033 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 20:05
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"What I'm trying to do is show to the American people and the British people ... that war has a wretchedly horrible face," Hope he succeeds in that. Just as I hope the willingness to face these issues shown by the american contingent here, become more representative in the US population as a whole. I'm ashamed to say many of the folk I talk to about it right now, display a kind of vaguely uncomfortable boredom with discussions of Iraq. But you're right Lawrence, there is hope, cheers for reminding me. Today I saw two expectant couples in an ante-natal ward. One pair were obviously devout Muslims, the others equally obviously Hassidic Jewish. Yet they were chatting and smiling, their children playing nearby. Hopefully their friendliness towards each other's cultures will be passed on to these kids, and those yet to be born. Despite the hatemongering. Here's hoping.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Jun 29, 2004, 20:52
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Well, yeah I hope someday something good comes out and we don't have anymore wars... Of course bad things in this world will always happen no matter what we do. But we can try to communicate that these wars are bad, but it depends on who's listening or paying attention. Or maybe there's a better way to send the message that we don't know... I tend to be apathetic.
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Quexalcote 228 posts |
Jun 30, 2004, 03:53
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There surely is a lot to be gained from having a detached view of one's country. I don't have what I would consider a patriotic bone in my body ("my parents happened to fuck here"), but in spite of all of its faults - and if anyone here wants to get into a contest to see who can name the most, I'm game - there is no other country that has facilitated a greater degree of liberty for a greater number of people of a more diverse ethnic, religious, and political makeup, within and without its borders. Please do not respond with a list of the US's fuckups --- as I've said I'm well aware of them. I'm just pointing out that there is "something" to American democracy, that something is well worth preserving, and its ability to facilitate change within is one of the best hopes the world has of realizing a better world along secular humanist progressive ideals. A long way off, certainly.
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Quexalcote 228 posts |
Jun 30, 2004, 04:13
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AQ- What a relief a reasoned reply is! I'm not sure where to begin as I don't seem able to quote you on here, and my brain ain't wired to recall the particulars of your post, but... My grievances aren't so much with those who are anti-war, I understand that position completely, and would share it if I honestly thought it was avoidable. I even cringe at writing that, but unfortunately, we're still members of the ape family and haven't evolved out of a stage where that is an option. My problem is with what I consider a nihilistic position, espoused by Moore/Zinn/Chomsky and in a reductive but not substantially different way from Lawrence here, that there is not anything that the US could do that would be considered OK. Lawrence very revealingly has said that it would be fine with him if it were a righteous president behind it, and if GW didn't "get the credit". I support the forcible removal of Saddam precisely because I believe that progressive secular humanism, with maximum freedom for all people is preferable to dictatorship. Someone, maybe you, mentioned other countries that are just as bad or worse. I would very much like to see them gone as well. I would hope that humans could come up with better ways than wars, but I'm not sure what that way would be. The UN route was tried for a very long time, with not much of a result. I don't think that a commitment to humanist ideals should be construed to be a suicide pact when there's a nutjob who's made it clear that he means you no good. GW is awful. An important difference is that he won't be president forever, and he does not have the final say on everryhting in this country even if he thinks he does. Things can and do change under the American system. Usually slowly. I don't think there was much hope of any change under a system like Iraq had. It seems as if when the left mentions Saddam at all, they are tripping over their tongues to get to the part where they say, "BUT Bush...." I don't see this as a way to help anybody anywhere. See the Zinn article I mentioned elsewhere. It is so frustrating that smart folks like him and Chomsky spend so much time thinking of reasons why Bush is awful and why what's happened shouldn't have happened, and not thinking of practical suggestions for what could happen right now. Things that could help real live people, not the abstract, intellectualised people in their heads. I think I've gotten way off course here, back later.
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Quexalcote 228 posts |
Jun 30, 2004, 04:19
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Actually, it's not all we've got, no. I would very much like it if America learned a thing or two from some of the Western European democracies, Canada, etc. They've certainly learned some things from us and we could use some of what they've made of it. Your life must be truly awful.........................
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Quexalcote 228 posts |
Jun 30, 2004, 04:22
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Rummy's got to go, clearly. No controversy there.
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Quexalcote 228 posts |
Jun 30, 2004, 04:25
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Haven't seen anything like critical debate from this guy yet. I'll admit it looks like it, and may sound like it at times, but I've certainly never discerned a point of view this guy's coming from aside from "whatever it is, I'm against it" He's the left wing version of clowns like Limbaugh and O'Reilly.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Jun 30, 2004, 04:36
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"And being against something for its own sake is very unsatisfying in these times." In any time. "I'm looking for baby steps to something better, 'cos the "revolution" is not coming any time soon." Hmmm. I thought voting Labour would be the lesser of two evils. Yet all we got was more of the same. Better in some ways (primarily the implementation of a minimum wage, which raised the standard of living for millions) but worse in others (Iraq, xenophobic immigration policies, privatisation of bodies that even Thatcher didn't dare meddle with) Back in the 1980's I was part of a left wing group within the Labour Party. They had some success for a while, but Labour's response was to close down their radical youth section, and expel left-wingers from the party. Hence the shift rightwards into power. But anyway, I suppose what I disagree with the above statement is that it leads to no change, a misguided belief in a corrupt political system, and ultimately apathy. Perhaps if the government removed ordinary working peoples right to vote, the revolution would indeed occur.
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Quexalcote 228 posts |
Jun 30, 2004, 04:36
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you are precious!
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Quexalcote 228 posts |
Jun 30, 2004, 04:41
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I'm not so sure of that.... Here we have a ridiculous rule that felons are not allowed to vote, even when released from prison. A good portion of these felons were in jail on drug charges and coincidentally a good portion of them were black. Had a LOT to do with the Florida elections. Aside from that, the vast majority of people under 30 don't vote anyway, and you couldn't get them to with a cattle prod. And yet, I'm still optimistic!
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