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U-Know! Forum » UK ID card Bill 'within four weeks' |
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
May 04, 2004, 14:45
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So are you for the idea of having ID cards? Or just indifferent to whether we have them or not? Can we not hear some of your arguments <i>for</i> having the cards? Or at the least, a rebuttal of the arguments against them? Otherwise it isn't much of a discussion. And a perceived lack of reasoned discussion would seem to be at the heart of your gripe above.
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Toni Torino 2299 posts |
May 04, 2004, 14:49
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I think I hear a "Those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear....." coming up.........
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Lord Lucan 2702 posts |
May 04, 2004, 14:55
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By the way, do you have any view on how it would help prevent terrorism? Although David Blunkett has kept saying this I can't find any info anywhere that explains how exactly it would help. And I'm genuinely interested to know and am not being sarcastic or anything.
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anthonyqkiernan 7087 posts |
May 04, 2004, 14:55
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Grufty J's spilling of the beans has got me thinking. You know, even if you have got anything to hide you've got nothing to fear. The chances of the government coming up with a system that works are pretty slim. What we should be arguing against is the £6Billion to set it up. Think of what that could really be used for (and, I don't just mean six billion smiles on six billion kids faces). Does anyone know how this one-card-for-everything will work in relation to our passports and driving licenses being 'harmonised' with the rest of europe? Will the ID card work for everything except those meaning you still have to carry the other two and effectively a library ticket? Or will the rest of europe have their ID cards 'harmonised' with us...ah, I see...
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Lord Lucan 2702 posts |
May 04, 2004, 15:01
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Now now, TT! You're making an assumption there. Let the man speak rather than prejudging him. That's what I think we all need to stop doing here so we can have a reasoned discussion.
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Lord Lucan 2702 posts |
May 04, 2004, 15:08
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The other thing this card scheme assumes is that everyone will not only agree to carry their card with them at all times, but that they'll even remember to. A lot of police hours could be wasted hauling people into the station who don't have their IDs on them either through conscientious objection, or just plain forgetfulness.
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cammyb 62 posts |
May 04, 2004, 15:31
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When working abroad I've always found it interesting to note that in certain countries the populace have wholehearedly embraced the concept and useage of ID Cards. From a KM point of view, I think they could be incredibly useful - but the theory of how to manage vast (and personal) swathes of knowledge is a troubled one. I'd like to think that knowledge could be used as a power for the greater good but, as ever, the inherent issues (for me) are in the execution. As for the cost issue, I firmly believe that it could be achieved for a fraction of the quoted sums but have utterly no doubt that the Government will think of a figure which will, ultimately, prove to be a shadow of the final cost. The approaches should be made to various AI & change management institutions/bodies rather than big business but that's not going to happen. As for what information is stored that is subject which we all should a full voice in - however, given this government's history I believe that it'll be something half-baked that comes through. The reality is that the debate should be publicly debated with information freely available to all and sundry. My experience is that most people I know (and I'd approximate it to be around 80-90%) are in, broadly, in favour of ID Cards but with a variety of caveats. And I apologise for my earlier language.
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cancer boy 977 posts |
May 04, 2004, 17:17
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You won't actually have to carry the card on you at all times, the proposal is that you'll be given a "producer" like they give you for your driving licence etc. when you get pulled over in the car. So if you're wearing a stove pipe hat and carrying a large ticking bomb presumably they'll give you a form and you have to report to your local police station to have it stamped at a later date, thus winning the "war on terror" or something. I'm fairly ambivalent about the whole thing myself, the civil liberties arguments just make me think "what, and the bastards can't/won't do those things to me already?". One thing that springs to mind is that under these circumstances is if there's a march/demo they want to stop then they might individually serve every marcher with a producer thus reducing the flow of people to a trickle.
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Toni Torino 2299 posts |
May 04, 2004, 17:25
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good point, civil disobedience could/would be nipped in the bud.....
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Lord Lucan 2702 posts |
May 05, 2004, 12:11
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“I'd like to think that knowledge could be used as a power for the greater good but, as ever, the inherent issues (for me) are in the execution.” You’re right. To be honest I don’t trust any government agency to keep the information attached to these cards anywhere near accurately or up-to-date enough. There really is the potential for badly inputted IDs to lead to mistaken identities, and even miscarriages of justice if it’s not done properly. There is however the angle that with the Freedom of Information Act ID cards might actually make it easier for people to demand their rights and find out what information the government holds on each of us. Alternatively it could be used to make that information even more difficult to get hold of, which is again an issue of the way it is implemented. I really don't hold with the 'it makes everyone just a number' argument, because we already are. We are all just a National Insurance number a number on the electorial register and most of us a passport number as far as the government is concerned anyway. I'm interested in the civil disobedience argument above though, which I hadn’t thought of before. It really could be used by the police that way depending on the powers that they are given to use them. I think actually you and I probably agree more than we initially thought, cammyb. It's not so much the cards themselves, as how they're used and what for exactly that worries me. Where I stand at the moment though is that I'm not convinced enough that the potential benefits outweigh the potential for them to be abused by the state or people like the police. Especially in the future, should a government with even more draconian attitudes have the ability to manipulate their use for their own political ends.
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