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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 11:53
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Rhiannon wrote: Yeah I bet he is. This is causing me much pause for thought this morning. It's a bit complicated isn't it. Though I suppose one way it's pretty straightforward, that if you take something that's not yours without the permission of the person that produced it (or owns it) then that's stealing isn't it. Stealing being generally considered Bad behaviour. I think your ebay person is particularly galling because they're making money out of the authors' sweat. It seems worse than uploading those books illegally in the first place. Though that's not exactly honest in itself. But he's even parasitising those people, he hasn't even done all the hard (though illegal) work of scanning those books in. (I wonder what the quality of the scans is, I mean turning a book into an ebook is a massive job surely) And I was thinking, are books a slightly different case from music. Downloading music for free off the internet, that's dishonest obviously because the musicians who created it are getting nothing and you're getting the benefit. But you get the benefit so easily, you jsut have to listen. With textbooks, you can't get the knowledge out of them so easily, you'd actually have to concentrate properly. So there's hundreds of books on that torrent, is anyone actually ever going to read them all, it's doubtful. Knowledge, that's something that shouldn't be squirrelled away and deliberately hidden from people. But if people want to really properly read a book, that's a big investment of their time and energy. So unless it's unobtainable any other way (possible I admit) then is it so much trouble to head to the library / order it from a bookshop and do it properly, if you really want to read it. (this is all a bit vague I realise). Er so maybe not much damage will be done to 690 of those 700 authors because you'll not read those books and you'd never have bought them anyway. But I suppose the trouble comes that for every person downloading them, they'll want a different 10 of those 700. So all the authors lose out in the grand scheme. no this is getting too tangled isn't it. This isn't supposed to be a personal stab honestly, it's just musing on the topic in general. Just because something's easy to do and nobody sees you doing it doesn't make it right. Suppose it's just down to personal choice in the end, like any cultural rules, and you have to risk any comeback from the law / unscrupulous people nicking your credit card details etc. Well I get your point(s) completely but in real terms it's not a lot different to people loaning books to friends and aquaintances is it. When I published my Avebury book I had people emailing me say how much they had enjoyed it although I knew they had not personally bought a copy. On enquiring of them some said it had been bought for them (fine) but others said a friend had loaned it to them, thus doing me out of a sale. It's what happens and won't change will it. Looking through the full list of books some that I've looked at cost over £60-70 so for many people interested in the subject matter it is sometimes the only way they will get to read it so I'm not going to knock it.
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moss 2897 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 12:15
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Think the answer to the question "too good to miss?" lies in the ethics of the question. I would answer yes I would not send off for his stuff because we are defined by our customs and laws, this copying of everything he could from the internet does not bypass the following i.e. intellectual property.... "Intellectual property (IP) is a term referring to a number of distinct types of creations of the mind for which a set of exclusive rights are recognized under the corresponding fields of law.[1] Under intellectual property law, owners are granted certain exclusive rights to a variety of intangible assets, such as musical, literary, and artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs. Common types of intellectual property rights include copyrights, trademarks, patents, industrial design rights and trade secrets in some jurisdictions. The term intellectual property is used to describe many very different, unrelated legal concepts." Or the Copyright jargon we all see at the beginning of books. To be honest i would not want a couple of hundred books downloaded anywhere on my computer for me to read, it would ruin your eyesight for a start! The 'intangible assets' in archaeological book writing (or any book writing) is hard work and effort. Makes you think this one.
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 12:48
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No I do take your point about the price of books. (though I'm sure you wouldn't condone people stealing actual books from bookshops because they were too expensive to read otherwise. and that's pretty much the same, surely). It's particularly factual / textbooks that cost lots of money isn't it, and that's because they don't sell many. And lots of people that want to read them ie poor starving students can't afford them. But they could go to the library, and the library has to pay like a royalty every time the book is issued yknow. Then some money is going back to the writer. That's an achievement, that you've written adn published a book yourself. Maybe some of those people that read it having borrowed it, they might then consider buying it themselves, ok you might make a few sales out of this borrowing? And you might argue that this is the same situation with the ebooks, you read it and then you think 'ok maybe I will shell out for it', and the author makes a bit of money they wouldn't have done. But I think that's a bit of a red herring, because people have always lent out books to their friends, so the amount of sales you lose / gain from this has been ever so, it's the same then as now. But with the internet and illegal uploading, isn't the scale entirely different. One copy doesn't do the rounds one person at a time like a real book, it can be copied thousands of times and be in thousands of different places in a moment. Isn't that much worse, is that not worth kicking against? Isn't that why it's illegal, because it's actual copying, not serial loaning? there's something nagging me about the whole 'something for nothing' attitude, maybe there's a kind of acquisitiveness angle that irks me. That there's hundreds of these books and you too can have them All! for nothing! - despite the fact that most people would never read a tenth of the things. (sorry this is all a bit straight from brain to keyboard)
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 13:10
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Rhiannon wrote: No I do take your point about the price of books. (though I'm sure you wouldn't condone people stealing actual books from bookshops because they were too expensive to read otherwise. and that's pretty much the same, surely). It's particularly factual / textbooks that cost lots of money isn't it, and that's because they don't sell many. And lots of people that want to read them ie poor starving students can't afford them. But they could go to the library, and the library has to pay like a royalty every time the book is issued yknow. Then some money is going back to the writer. That's an achievement, that you've written adn published a book yourself. Maybe some of those people that read it having borrowed it, they might then consider buying it themselves, ok you might make a few sales out of this borrowing? And you might argue that this is the same situation with the ebooks, you read it and then you think 'ok maybe I will shell out for it', and the author makes a bit of money they wouldn't have done. But I think that's a bit of a red herring, because people have always lent out books to their friends, so the amount of sales you lose / gain from this has been ever so, it's the same then as now. But with the internet and illegal uploading, isn't the scale entirely different. One copy doesn't do the rounds one person at a time like a real book, it can be copied thousands of times and be in thousands of different places in a moment. Isn't that much worse, is that not worth kicking against? Isn't that why it's illegal, because it's actual copying, not serial loaning? there's something nagging me about the whole 'something for nothing' attitude, maybe there's a kind of acquisitiveness angle that irks me. That there's hundreds of these books and you too can have them All! for nothing! - despite the fact that most people would never read a tenth of the things. (sorry this is all a bit straight from brain to keyboard) My very first two books (on Border Collies) were self-published but after that publishers came to me for the next seven when they realised I had become something of an 'authority' on their bloodlines. That was very pleasing although like archaeology it has a limited audience. The Avebury book I published myself as I was not known in that particular market place but it was received well and sold mainly through its own website (and made more money because of it!!). It's opened up a few doors for me which hopefully will lead to something special later on. Self-publishing is not too much of a big deal today if you go about it correctly and sensibly and as we all know the Internet is now a world-wide market place just out there waiting for you to get on board. I remember a while back someone here was 'bursting' to talk about his findings and tell the world. Well do just that while you can before you read all about it in someone elses book which is the most disheartening thing you can do :-(
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 13:10
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Rhiannon wrote: No I do take your point about the price of books. (though I'm sure you wouldn't condone people stealing actual books from bookshops because they were too expensive to read otherwise. and that's pretty much the same, surely). It's particularly factual / textbooks that cost lots of money isn't it, and that's because they don't sell many. And lots of people that want to read them ie poor starving students can't afford them. But they could go to the library, and the library has to pay like a royalty every time the book is issued yknow. Then some money is going back to the writer. That's an achievement, that you've written adn published a book yourself. Maybe some of those people that read it having borrowed it, they might then consider buying it themselves, ok you might make a few sales out of this borrowing? And you might argue that this is the same situation with the ebooks, you read it and then you think 'ok maybe I will shell out for it', and the author makes a bit of money they wouldn't have done. But I think that's a bit of a red herring, because people have always lent out books to their friends, so the amount of sales you lose / gain from this has been ever so, it's the same then as now. But with the internet and illegal uploading, isn't the scale entirely different. One copy doesn't do the rounds one person at a time like a real book, it can be copied thousands of times and be in thousands of different places in a moment. Isn't that much worse, is that not worth kicking against? Isn't that why it's illegal, because it's actual copying, not serial loaning? there's something nagging me about the whole 'something for nothing' attitude, maybe there's a kind of acquisitiveness angle that irks me. That there's hundreds of these books and you too can have them All! for nothing! - despite the fact that most people would never read a tenth of the things. (sorry this is all a bit straight from brain to keyboard) My very first two books (on Border Collies) were self-published but after that publishers came to me for the next seven when they realised I had become something of an 'authority' on their bloodlines. That was very pleasing although like archaeology it has a limited audience. The Avebury book I published myself as I was not known in that particular market place but it was received well and sold mainly through its own website (and made more money because of it!!). It's opened up a few doors for me which hopefully will lead to something special later on. Self-publishing is not too much of a big deal today if you go about it correctly and sensibly and as we all know the Internet is now a world-wide market place just out there waiting for you to get on board. I remember a while back someone here was 'bursting' to talk about his findings and tell the world. Well do just that while you can before you read all about it in someone elses book which is the most disheartening thing you can do :-(
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Edited Feb 23, 2012, 12:22
Feb 23, 2012, 13:21
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Actually, I said 'I bet he did' but did you know, ebay don't really give a monkeys. Which is pretty poor I think as they take a cut of whatever gets sold. That's no better than the landlord taking a cut from Bob down the pub when he sells one of his dodgy car stereos, surely? http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/tp/vero-rights-owner.html To have a listing removed, the copyright owner has to complain in person, no one else can, even if it's blatantly obvious. And then (get this) they have to print off a form and FAX it to ebay. Fax it. I mean what century is this. So = everyone just carry on as normal it seems. Because the 780 people who actually own the copyright are never going to notice. So apparently it doesn't matter. whatever
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Chris Collyer 849 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 13:55
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juamei wrote: Haha bet he did. http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/atgdigitalpublishing/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25&_trksid=p3686 He's left quite a lot of other collections up, presumably all downloaded and then burnt to dvd! Easy illegal money and so flagrant as well... He's on to a nice little earner isn't he. Here's a question - if I copy one his dvds and then sell it on ebay will he sue me for copyright? ;-) -Chris -Chris
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 14:23
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This is another one out of the 780 and a 2005 publication. All the rights and wrongs apart you have to say how lucky we are today to be able to store all of the information on a disc or two!! http://www.abebooks.co.uk/Architectural-Tiles-Conservation-Restoration-Lesley-Durbin/6089512553/bd Expensive though.
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thesweetcheat 6213 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 19:40
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Sanctuary wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Anyway the link is there in my first post to question this bloke directly if that is what stopping some from buying. If he is telling the truth then you are missing out on a great deal so check him out. Hi Roy, question asked. I'll let you know what answer I get. This is useful too: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law He's just emailed me to say he is stopping the listing and would I remove the link :-) Cheers Roy, thanks for the update.
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thesweetcheat 6213 posts |
Feb 23, 2012, 19:49
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Chris Collyer wrote: Here's a question - if I copy one his dvds and then sell it on ebay will he sue me for copyright? ;-) -Chris -Chris Seems the answer is "no". If you sample a piece of music into your own track and then someone samples your sample (stay with me), the copyright is still with the original owner.
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