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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Time Team R.I.P. ? |
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moss 2897 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 15:33
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FourWinds wrote: Branwen wrote: I would imagine they wanted Time Team to consider the possibility the upside down tree was a shaft burial, and not an altar. What's a shaft burial? Never heard of them. One of the ideas was that the upturned tree was a place for the excarnation of bodies, it was terribly difficult to get into the circle, there was only a narrow forked post for entrance, I suppose the closeness of the wooden posts would have kept the scavenging animals out...
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Edited Jan 10, 2010, 15:50
Jan 10, 2010, 15:46
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moss wrote: FourWinds wrote: Branwen wrote: I would imagine they wanted Time Team to consider the possibility the upside down tree was a shaft burial, and not an altar. What's a shaft burial? Never heard of them. One of the ideas was that the upturned tree was a place for the excarnation of bodies, it was terribly difficult to get into the circle, there was only a narrow forked post for entrance, I suppose the closeness of the wooden posts would have kept the scavenging animals out... Birds ? unless they were doing the business .
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moss 2897 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 16:13
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"Birds ? unless they were doing the business ." Yes I suppose so, though always liked the idea of Tibetan sky burials and vultures doing the job, but I suppose it was the aptly named carrion crow that could have picked the flesh clean.. Can't remember where I read that idea might have been Francis Pryor.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 16:31
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moss wrote: "Birds ? unless they were doing the business ." Yes I suppose so, though always liked the idea of Tibetan sky burials and vultures doing the job, but I suppose it was the aptly named carrion crow that could have picked the flesh clean.. Can't remember where I read that idea might have been Francis Pryor. there was that 18 th C ? bloke , can't remember his name , did drawings of red Indians /native Americans , Mandans? and was a big influence on the suggestion that excarnation may have been used here .
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StoneGloves 1149 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 16:50
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Some of the stone basins, and like, are deep enough to have held some kind of post. An altered or created notch is just the same as a cairn, but upside down.
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moss 2897 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 16:53
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tiompan wrote: [ there was that 18 th C ? bloke , can't remember his name , did drawings of red Indians /native Americans , Mandans? and was a big influence on the suggestion that excarnation may have been used here . Remember that, there's an illustration in Burls' Prehistoric Avebury, it was George Caitlin who painted the picture of the four poster platforms of the Mandans. Burl takes excarnation for granted, mentions Catal Huyuk platforms, so you're saying that the idea of excarnation is just an idea? though to be fair it happens in lots of places so it could easily have happened here as well, thats how they explain four timber posts here as platforms....
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 17:04
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Burl takes excarnation for granted, mentions Catal Huyuk platforms, so you're saying that the idea of excarnation is just an idea? though to be fair it happens in lots of places so it could easily have happened here as well, thats how they explain four timber posts here as platforms.... Good point. There are very practical reasons why excarnation was practiced in Tibet however, and that's the lack of fuel for cremation and the (frozen) hardness of the ground for burial. If excarnation was practice here it may have been for religious not practical reasons - though folks back then may have preferred to put their feet up during the winter months rather than digging a grave or plodding out to find extra wood for a pyre :-)
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 17:08
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moss wrote: tiompan wrote: [ there was that 18 th C ? bloke , can't remember his name , did drawings of red Indians /native Americans , Mandans? and was a big influence on the suggestion that excarnation may have been used here . Remember that, there's an illustration in Burls' Prehistoric Avebury, it was George Caitlin who painted the picture of the four poster platforms of the Mandans. Burl takes excarnation for granted, mentions Catal Huyuk platforms, so you're saying that the idea of excarnation is just an idea? though to be fair it happens in lots of places so it could easily have happened here as well, thats how they explain four timber posts here as platforms.... That's the bloke , yep it could have happened here .20 years ago it was frequently suggested due to the finds of mortuary enclosures having the four posts and putative platform , more caution these days , dificult to prove and no direct evidence . Whilst at the other end of the spectrum finds are starting to show that pyres may have had more than one body and other cases where bones have signs of having been defleshed with knives .Maybe the practice was similar to that still found in the Balkans and other areas where bodies are buried then exhumed years laetr the bones cleaned or washed ,sometimes with wine , then reinterred .
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Branwen 824 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 17:23
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I first read about shaft burials in T D Kendrick's book on Druids, I think. It was more than 20 years ago when most druid books were lightly sidestepping around the issue of the celts making sacrifices, especially human ones. (If they weren't just outright claiming it was all prpaganda and not true). Perhaps he's been proven to be wrong, in the meantime. Or people think the purpose was simply to make a well shaft, perhaps one which emulated the watery grave you get in bogs. Perhaps there's new evidence connected to these, and I need to update my source material. I ind myself doing that a lot here, LOL. A quick google still shows lots of pages talking about shaft burials, though not with the tree in them, so far. MAybe that was very rare. Anyway, I seem to rememeber being astounded that some shafts were up to 120ft deep, and occassionally had been found to have had an upside down tree placed in them. At the bottom, animal, votive, and occassionally human remains were found. The book stated that you have to consider that your basically humanitarion, non-sacrificing druid did not exist, and shafts with trees in them might be part of such rituals. If I placed myself inside that story, I'd imagine the upside down tree as symbolic of climbing the tree of life into afterlife. Perhaps it was a path guaranteed to place you in the cauldron of rebirth. The spiral wooden fence being built last, so you could visit the ancestors, human and otherwise, buried there, and yet keep them contained away from the living world, where their spirits might make mischief. I probably only remember it cos it gave me nightmares of being drugged, helped to climb down a tree, and being buried alive. http://www.sheshen-eceni.co.uk/images/tgc_001.JPG
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tjj 3606 posts |
Jan 10, 2010, 17:27
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Littlestone wrote: Burl takes excarnation for granted, mentions Catal Huyuk platforms, so you're saying that the idea of excarnation is just an idea? though to be fair it happens in lots of places so it could easily have happened here as well, thats how they explain four timber posts here as platforms.... Good point. There are very practical reasons why excarnation was practiced in Tibet however, and that's the lack of fuel for cremation and the (frozen) hardness of the ground for burial. If excarnation was practice here it may have been for religious not practical reasons - though folks back then may have preferred to put their feet up during the winter months rather than digging a grave or plodding out to find extra wood for a pyre :-) Mmm! Interesting ... I never thought about the climate having an influence on how burials took place but of course it makes sense. Some time back I went into a small museum at Lulworth Cove where the display showed illustrations of excarnations - apparently always at a high point of land (hill, clifftop). It seems a little passe to say it now but I used to think that was a possible use for Silbury Hill (processional path to the top) - for important people like tribal leaders. Just thinking aloud again. tj
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