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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Dec 18, 2005, 23:08
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>> Does that mean that all are aligned to stages of the solar cycle? No it doesn't. I often think people look for solar/stellar alignments too quickly. From my experience there is as much, if not more, importance in how a site relates to the landscape and its features. We need to look at less obvious things. This is something that was brought home to me on a visit to Malin More court tomb. There the winter solstice sun does not rise in any special place, but it does perform a prety spectacular trick at midday when it rolls across the top of a mountain to the south http://www.megalithomania.com/show/image/3736 However, the lack of a solar alignment at a handful of sites doesn't mean that the sites with identifiable alignments are coincidental. When one appears exist it probably does. The 'light box' at Newgrange and the one in Loughcrew are proof of that. The variation in tomb alignment just goes to show that there was a diversity in belief/importance. There probably is no unified theory of ancient belief and it's probably folly to search for it, but that won't stop us looking for it :-)
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fitzcoraldo 2709 posts |
Dec 18, 2005, 23:20
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What I meant was, I'd like to see some actual archaeological evidence for henges being used as corrals. An excavated dung heap or a cattle trodden land surface would be a good start.
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Dec 18, 2005, 23:43
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Groan... just typed a long reply to your post fitz and then hit the 'paste' key instead of the 'copy' key - it's gone and I haven't got the energy to do it again tonight but will reply soon :-(
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treaclechops 378 posts |
Dec 19, 2005, 00:21
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Hi All, Hope you are all well, and enjoying a jolly: Yule/Saturnalia/Solstice/Midwinter/Christmas/Eid/whatever your particular festival is - we are, here in North Wales! Further to henges, a few thoughts, for what they're worth: a) With regard to alignment of henges and the astro-archaeo angle. Don't forget that the sun, moon, stars and planets have all shifted a little in the sky since these structures were built. What might not seem to be aligned now probably was then. b) The immediate assumption is that they are aligned to the sun and the moon. What about Venus? The morning or evening star appears in many cults and mythologies around the world, and is also personified - e.g. the Venus of the Romans, Ishtar of the Babylonians. Venus is hugely influential. It has also been suggested that by tracking the course of Venus through the sky, ancient astronomers were able to work out the circumference of the earth, and develop an accurate measurement system. This is also assuming alignments occur on a regular basis - what about once in a lifetime, or 18 yearly events, such as the moon being so high in the sky a couple of days ago? What about eclipses? These are now interesting events that occur every so often and we tick them off in our Letts pocket diary. It would have been much different then. c) I'm writing this after taking the dogs out for a late moonlit stroll. Although the moon had an almost magensium brightness, and the major constellations were there to be seen, we live beneath immense light pollution. Starlight alone can be very bright - our ancestors would have experienced a very different night sky to the one I saw tonight. How do we know that some of these structures weren't aligned to specific constellations? What if a clan felt an allegiance to the constellation we know as Orion? Consider also that in the Celtic calendar, festivals are always celebrated on the Eve of whatever day. Additionally, many of the stars they would have observed will now have disappeared from our view. An example is Argus, a constellation to be found in the southern hemisphere. Evidently, two-thirds of the constellation has disappeared since the ancient Babylonians first mapped it 3-4,000 years ago. d) I personally don't see any of this as unreasonable, just different. Why not? Why is York Minster built the way it is? The Taj Mahal? Versailles? Norman Foster's Gherkin? All of these are perceived as beautiful in their own right - perhaps the horns of Belas Knap were no more than a Stone Age architectural triumph, a thing of beauty for its own sake. (Though my own feeling is that there's a bit more to it than that). These people lived more closely with the land than we will ever be able to begin to imagine. When I visit megalithic sites, I try to see the big picture - look around, see the elements, the shape of the land, feel the land . . . I am convinced they saw it as the life force personified; and here we could get into Gaia Theory. Why not? As we have become more 'civilized', our visualization of life force has become increasingly ethereal, remote, distant. We have a very unconnected spirituality, despite what we think to the contrary. However, I appreciate your comments about them being stock markets - indeed, some of them may have been. Some may not. As for the shape and form of these structures, perhaps trying to get into the mind and thinking processes of our Stone Age forefathers is a challenge akin to getting into the mind and thought processes of someone living in the Takla Makhan desert - they'll be very different to ours. Just because the people who built Capel Garmon are our ancestors, it doesn't allow us some form of head start on understanding and ownership of the culture. Personally, I love it! I'm sure there's lots more I could waffle on about, but I really must go to bed. Good luck with your mapping and measuring, Peter, perhaps you'll discover something none of us had considered - wouldn't that be cool! :0) Nadolig Llawen! treaclechops x
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PeterH 1180 posts |
Dec 19, 2005, 08:20
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Yes but... Are you not still thinking of the big henges of Wessex? Sure - they are massive and would have involved many people working over a longish time period. Yes they do reveal evidence of dwellings within and Marden, Durrington and Avebury are surely now seen as mulit-functional (doesn't Burl discount them as henges because of their size?). I accept all of that, but the point I'm making is just to question if ALL ring-ditch structures that we currently call "henges" were built to the same purpose. I draw no conclusions whatsoever. I simply post a question. Can anyone briefly summarise the evidence that proves that ALL henges (of whatever size) were constructed for ritual purpose alone?
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PeterH 1180 posts |
Dec 19, 2005, 08:37
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I agree. The lightbox proves that very specific solar alignment was very important. Ditto for other cleverly contrived placings. Modern analogies don't always work but try this on for size. Take Anytown with an ancient church. It will be aligned with the altar to the east and with a west tower. There will be other churches and chapels not aligned as such, but with their entrances on the high street. They have been built by the Victorians on available land. Take all of the domestic front doors in all of the houses. Excepting those facing in a northerly direction, probably two-thirds will exactly face sunrises and sunsets on various days throughout the year. Many will face moon risesand moon sets. Yet none have been designed to do so. The alignments are real, but unintentional and certainly not ritual. The local cinema might align with a distant hill, but purely by coincidence. What evidence do we have that makes the case that the majority of henges, tombs, long barrows, cursus, causewayed enclosure etc are deliberately aligned to sun, moon or landscape features? Again - I am not trying to prove a point. I'm just testing the accepted view.
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PeterH 1180 posts |
Dec 19, 2005, 08:43
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Sorry to disappoint anyone, but I'm not planning an exit. ;o) I just want to look at what I can without being led by expert opinion. Then I shall re-read the books and see where I am then.
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PeterH 1180 posts |
Dec 19, 2005, 08:47
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Fair enough and so would I. Heavy concentrates of nitrates woudbe a good indication. By the same token, I would like to see some evidence that all henges were used for rituals alone.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Dec 19, 2005, 08:54
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Every site has to be taken on its own merits. Take the early churches. As I mentioned before, many of these do align to the sunrise on the local saint's day, not due east. Surely that isn't a coincidence? I do agree that not every alignment is going to be valid, but when a great many tombs face cardinal or quarter compass points they surely must be. If they can be taken as significant then I would think that the rest must be for some reason or other. When you get a great many tombs that face a V-shape in the surrounding mountains then those views must be important. My view is that the Victorian church analogy can be dismissed because tombs were not built where there was a bit of space. Many lowland tombs/circles seem to have been built on good farming land. This is something that seems to have been overlooked. The ancients actually set aside a good piece of land to build somewhere for their ancestors to go to. Maybe this was to assure them of some good land in the afterlife? The different tomb type in Ireland demonstrate very different ideas of what was important. Passage tombs seem to face key sunrises/sunsets (in general), court tombs tend towards north & south, portal tombs face east & wedge tombs tend towards the west. All these are from different eras and potentially different cultures with different ideas. Cork stone circles and stone rows nearly all align SW/NE. Other Irish circles face different directions. This does not make the Cork alignment standard invalid, but isolates it as a local design feature.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Dec 19, 2005, 08:57
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>> Sounds like you're about to do a FourWinds exit on us there Peter All you need to do is rediscover your drug of choice that you abandoned nine months ago and you're sorted :-)
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