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GordonP 474 posts |
Aug 16, 2003, 21:34
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object one. Prove the theory. No other objectives. Gordon
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ocifant 1758 posts |
Aug 16, 2003, 22:02
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Gordon, I've asked a friend of mine to take a look at this thread. He's got connections in TV and may be able to advise... I'll let you know once I've spoken with him later in the week. |
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konaman 533 posts |
Aug 16, 2003, 22:56
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| I'm in, for a bit of manual labour & the chance to meet up with a few HHers.....would Pete G ( if he's lurking) know of any candidate stones local to Avebury where you could try without causing offence...great to prove the theory, then if wider (TV) acceptance, fantastic ! | |
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 17, 2003, 14:34
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I don’t know what the neighbours thought, but me and the Neanderthals have spent the morning rowing a large box full of stone chippings round the garden. I told them there was beer underneath. Gordon, it works like a dream. And there were several things about it that I hadn’t realized: First, the weight of the oars themselves helped considerably in the lifting process, so the effort involved is amazingly small – as indeed you said it was. Secondly, it’s JUST like rowing (as indeed it ought to be since it’s almost the same process) and the good thing about that is that you can keep the stone straight, and steer it, almost intuitively by putting more or less effort into each stroke compared with the person opposite you. It’s like being side by side with someone in a boat, each with an oar, you just automatically co-operate to keep it straight. Thirdly, I hadn’t appreciated that you could repeat the rowing action a number of times without stopping and re-positioning the oar. If you get it right the stone can be kept moving with hardly a pause between strokes. At the end, one of the Neanderthals said “rollocks!”. I think he may have meant that if you had notches for the oars cut into the fulcrum logs then you’d be able to row even faster. It may have been through finding no beer though. |
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GordonP 474 posts |
Aug 17, 2003, 16:42
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Thanks Nigel At last I've spoken to someone who will get off thier arse and try something. You would not believe the number of letters I've written to TV producers, archaeologists etc who could easily have done just what you did this morning. I am so pleased. Lets do this thing for real, whatever it takes. Gordon. |
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 18, 2003, 09:57
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Gordon, one of the said Neanderthals is enrolled on an archaeology-related Open University course (part of their “open access for all hominid species” scheme, I believe) and he’s offered to point his professor to this thread. You never know, they might be intrigued. Is that OK? Any thoughts on a preferred location? Where are you based? I suppose almost anywhere in Wales would do the job, and the Clee Hills are littered with perfect stones (OK, I admit it, I can see them out of the window) but I suppose maximum cred would be gained from using sarsens, perhaps in Wilts (though NOT in the Avebury World Heritage boundaries – I don’t want to end up on the wrong side of another argument about that). Does anyone have any likely spots? I don’t mind doing a bit of chatting up of farmers if required, but it would be perfect if someone had a friend or relative with a good site. |
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AtomicMutton 104 posts |
Aug 18, 2003, 14:16
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Often the bottom of the stones are rounded so the process of righting them, in the hole, is made easier. Have a look at Harold's Stones. How far, and in what direction, stones have slipped in three and a half thousand years is another question. Vertical stones look dull (in my experience). Defy gravity and create tension - but where does that leave Stonehenge ? 'Give me a lever and I'll move the world' - attributed to Ron Knee, in 1948, talking about the Neasden Wanderers.
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GordonP 474 posts |
Aug 18, 2003, 16:10
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Nigel, Sooner or later we will need someone from the academic world, tell your son OK. I am in Derby right in the centre of the country, so I can cover a large area, although I will probably have to visit whatever site we use on several occasions before the actual experiment. Some thoughts on what we will need. The site. A stone. ( I think 10 tons would be ideal to start with, preferably of a similar shape to the sarsens) Levers, these should be recently felled green wood. I used Larch last time and it worked well. Support logs and fulcrum logs. (anything log shaped) Like you said, once we have got the hang of moving the stone we can do a demo for the academics and perhaps gain their support for the erection experiment. Regards Gordon |
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 19, 2003, 09:16
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Gordon, OK, he’ll contact them today. “A stone similar in shape to the sarsens”… not sure what shape that would be, but I guess you’d get more bangs for your buck with tall and thin rather than short and fat. Might be easier to handle as well? “Recently felled larch levers”… one thought, apparently the predominant trees of the time would have been “oak, lime, birch and ash, plus beech (in the South) and Scots Pine (in the North). Would any of these be suitable, and easily obtainable ? I’m wondering about nitpicking academics. On the other hand, at least you know your larch works. I’d hate the experiment to consist of a series of loud cracks! I was intrigued to see that the block you moved was about the same weight as a Stonehenge bluestone, and that for that you used 20 ft long levers. Much of the Stonehenge Avenue, said by many to be the route of the bluestones, is 40 ft wide (but more in the earlier stages, where it’s steeper and might need longer levers?). Hmmm. Also, you say your technique involves lifting the levers above head height. If you’d had parallel banks and ditches like the Avenue has, mightn’t you have found the process even easier? OK, it’s just a bit of mad raving and someone will point out a fallacy, but what the hell, I enjoy it. To continue the raving, wouldn’t the whole experiment be sexed-up, to an irresistible extent so far as film companies go, if in addition to the main experiment we also rowed a very light fibre glass sarsen replica along the Stonehenge Avenue? Hahahaha! I’d pay to take part in that. It’d be great when the English Heritage Jobsworths arrived… “’ere what are you lot doin’ then?” |
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GordonP 474 posts |
Aug 19, 2003, 11:40
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Hi Nigel For a 10 ton stone I had in mind something like this, 20ft long, 3ft 6ins wide and 2ft deep. Something like that would make a spectacular erection (no laughing ladies) in concrete. At 157lbs per cubic foot that makes just over 10 tons. Apparantly concrete weighs about the same per cubic foot as the sarsen stone according to the archaeologists and has been used before in archaeological experiments. However if we use natural stone and all we could get was a big 10 ton boulder we could use a sort of timber raft to rest the stone on and lever the raft along. Larch levers, I used larch on advice from the timber merchant, maybe he had plenty available, but any of those you mentioned would probably work. I'm a bit dubious about ash though , it may be to flexible. Oak would be good but might be heavy. We should test some different timber before deciding. I chose 20ft as the length because I thought that was about as long as one man could handle, after doing the experiment I now think that might be a bit long. We should test different lengths also. Whatever we use should,I think, be green. Regarding the head height business. After each lift the lever needs to be lifted clear of the fulcrum log to reposition for the next lift, this means that the end of the lever nearest the stone actually rests on the groud during repositioning. When this is done the lever moves along the track at the same rate as the stone without the need to stop the rowing action. Fibreglass? I do hope your joking, people already think I'm mad. Regards Gordon |
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