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Sin Agog 2253 posts |
Nov 22, 2015, 14:41
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That's another thing that gets ignored in the backstory for the awful atrocities that went down in France. They made a point of banning the use of the burqa in France, ostensibly for it being an affront to free womanhood, when in reality there were barely a couple of hundred Muslim women who wore them in the whole country at the time. Thus it was really an act of institutionalised discrimination- a petty fuck you by making a grandiose gesture against a non-existent problem. Couple things like that with a really vehement, intense hatred of all things Islamic from both sides of the political spectrum that's only mounted over the years, and the atrocities seem less nihilistic than is generally made out. Personally, the west's credo of indoctrinating women into painting themselves and transforming themselves into objects for the male gaze seems equally as harrowing, though obviously not as bad as a good deal of women's treatment in some Islamic countries.
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Nov 22, 2015, 14:58
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I was talking to someone a while ago who were saying that the Burkha should be banned as women are forced to wear it, my question was what should women be forced to wear? I'm still waiting for a good answer. Only last night I was talking to a model and photographer friend who were talking about the fashion industry, the levels of abuse in there is appalling, yet it's completely ignored and considered perfectly acceptable by many in society.
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Lump Of Green Slime 56 posts |
Edited Nov 22, 2015, 15:53
Nov 22, 2015, 15:49
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As an aside, according to Elizabeth Bucar, bans on headscarves in public institutions have also occurred on and off in Turkey since the 1960's. In 1993 there was a failed attempt in Egypt to ban the veil in schools. Azerbaijan, Albania and Uzbekistan all ban religious clothing in universities. Tajikistan bans the headscarf in public and Islamic schools and universities. Finally, during Suharto's regime, Islamic headscarves were banned in Indonesian schools. It might actually be interesting to find out how many Muslim men would be in favour of compulsory veiling because it is something that they themselves wish to do (or at least some of them). For example, in the Berber Muslim Tuareg tribe, men, not women, veil. Known as 'the blue-veiled men', Tuareg males wear long, flowing robes and a head covering known as tagelmust , which consists of a low turban and a face veil. Ideally, all Tuareg men wear this veil from the onset of puberty, as it identifies them of being of marriageable age, until death. There are also Muslim men who wear women's dress as part of their ritual or gender performance. Dating back to the 14th Century, the bissu are Muslim men in South Sulawesi who wear women's dress in religious rituals. Common still today in this region of the world are also Muslim transvestites called 'waria', a combination of the Indonesian word 'juanita' for woman and 'pria' for man. I offer these examples to counterbalance yet another one-dimensional assumption, namely, that the Islamic veil is everywhere and always a symbol of patriarchal oppression and women's subordination. Accounts of women heads of state in several Muslim countries and of the enthusiastic participation of female leaders in the Arab Spring uprisings have done little to dispel this impression. And when Muslim women in prominent public roles do receive attention, they are often depicted as exceptions to the rule. It is not surprising therefore that her commitment to Islam as a driving force for her advocacy of female education is rarely mentioned in Western accounts of Malala Yusufzai's public career to date. Having said all that, whenever I see someone wearing niqab around London, I do find myself wondering which lame version of Salafism they probably adhere to. It puts me in mind of turkeys voting for Christmas and that sort of thing.
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Nov 22, 2015, 16:31
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Interesting that. In many Christian churches around the world veiling is still in practice, and apparently making a bit of a comeback in the UK too. An ex girlfriend and I paid a visit to Basilica di San Lorenzo in Florence where she was asked to veil. I always find it interesting that many in the west complain about Muslim women wearing the veil/head covering and yet don't complain about nuns for doing the same thing!
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Nov 22, 2015, 21:59
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Captain Starlet wrote: Interesting that. In many Christian churches around the world veiling is still in practice, and apparently making a bit of a comeback in the UK too. An ex girlfriend and I paid a visit to Basilica di San Lorenzo in Florence where she was asked to veil. I always find it interesting that many in the west complain about Muslim women wearing the veil/head covering and yet don't complain about nuns for doing the same thing! Your ex girlfriend was 'asked' to veil? How did you feel about that? How did she feel about that? Any dress requirements of the blokes? Anyways, I do think most of the objection is to the face coverings, I certainly do not feel comfortable seeing that, and where I am rarely do. In part for the same reason I do not like to see someone wearing a hoody to the point you can hardly see their face, or if someone walks into a shop wearing a motorcycle helmet. Of course there is an element of feeling that person is drawing up a barrier, certainly would be difficult to gauge a smile from someone. We all like to do that, don't we? We don't get a smile back we just think 'ah well' and then forget about it. I find the face covering socially alienating tbh. Any other religious garb (including the nun's head covering) doesn't really bother too many people I think.
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Nov 22, 2015, 22:12
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sanshee wrote: Captain Starlet wrote: Interesting that. In many Christian churches around the world veiling is still in practice, and apparently making a bit of a comeback in the UK too. An ex girlfriend and I paid a visit to Basilica di San Lorenzo in Florence where she was asked to veil. I always find it interesting that many in the west complain about Muslim women wearing the veil/head covering and yet don't complain about nuns for doing the same thing! Your ex girlfriend was 'asked' to veil? How did you feel about that? How did she feel about that? Any dress requirements of the blokes? Anyways, I do think most of the objection is to the face coverings, I certainly do not feel comfortable seeing that, and where I am rarely do. In part for the same reason I do not like to see someone wearing a hoody to the point you can hardly see their face, or if someone walks into a shop wearing a motorcycle helmet. Of course there is an element of feeling that person is drawing up a barrier, certainly would be difficult to gauge a smile from someone. We all like to do that, don't we? We don't get a smile back we just think 'ah well' and then forget about it. I find the face covering socially alienating tbh. Any other religious garb (including the nun's head covering) doesn't really bother too many people I think. I don't think people even think about other religious head coverings. I can't say it's an intentional thing to question someone who wears a veil/head covering as I can't speak for everyone but we here I suppose like to see what a person looks like and if their friend or foe, so to speak. With a facial covering we don't get that opportunity, however I think a huge part of the problem there is we can't grasp the concept that to many who have a facial covering see us as speaking with the eyes and it's them that show a persons intent and meaning. We obviously grew up with a different concept so I suppose it's not easy to understand. I have problems understanding it myself however I don't feel uncomfortable when I see someone with their face covered, I think some part of it is how we're socially engineered, for won't of a better term. No I didn't have a problem with it, and my ex is Roman Catholic so she wasn't bothered either. I was more surprised it was asked if anything as I'd never experienced it before with someone, but neither of us had a problem with it as we wanted to see the place and respected their beliefs.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Nov 22, 2015, 22:30
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That's the thing, I find that there is never any requirement of the blokes to 'dress accordingly' deeply wrong, and something I can not respect. They asked your girlfriend, not you. It is pure segregation of the sexes, however you look at it. No one would respect a system that discriminates based on race, but gender seems fair dos to some. The Catholic church is also one of the last religions on earth to give women an equal voice in their hierarchy, and I would find it difficult to pander to that.
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Nov 22, 2015, 22:39
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sanshee wrote: That's the thing, I find that there is never any requirement of the blokes to 'dress accordingly' deeply wrong, and something I can not respect. They asked your girlfriend, not you. It is pure segregation of the sexes, however you look at it. No one would respect a system that discriminates based on race, but gender seems fair dos to some. The Catholic church is also one of the last religions on earth to give women an equal voice in their hierarchy, and I would find it difficult to pander to that. I totally agree. Lump of Green Slime posted earlier about Men in Islam having to dress up or veil, which was an interesting read. All religions have their garb and all ask that you show the proper respect. I have an interest in religion and respect the beliefs of those who believe in it, so I do as I'm asked. When in my house I'd expect someone to adhere to my rules so don't really have too much of a problem with other peoples. Most of the time it's take your shoes off. I used to go to Skandia Vale, a Hindu and multi faith monastic community in South Wales while in uni and there you weren't allowed to eat meat for 3 days beforehand, don't know why 3 days but wasn't a problem as I really like it there and the food's great. Everyone had to wrap up, not for any religious reason just that it was bloody cold!
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Toni Torino 2299 posts |
Nov 23, 2015, 09:31
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No? Fucking wankers, the lot of you...
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Sin Agog 2253 posts |
Nov 23, 2015, 10:58
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No one seems to be fighting here anymore. Just a few disciples waiting for the green slimy messiah to deign to speak.
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