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thelonious
330 posts

Edited Aug 23, 2020, 15:07
Re: Right to Roam
Aug 23, 2020, 14:59
tjj wrote:
Another little book people might like to read is The Fish Ladder by Katherine Norbury - it is actually her own personal story which she weaves around following various rivers in the UK back to their source - the most northerly one being Dunbeath which takes her to Loch Braighe na h'Aibbne. In another instance near the source of the Severn she steps into a puddle which turns out to be a bog and is covered completely with muddy water - fortunately her young daughter is with her to help her climb out.


Hi tjj. I had a lazy Sunday morning today and finished reading ‘The Fish Ladder’. Just wanted to thank you for recommending it. Well worth spending time with and I’ll let it settle in my head over the next few days. Not my usual sort of book and I’m not that used to reading about someone’s life in such bare detail. So sad at times. Love the places she wrote about. Many I’ve been lucky enough to have visited. Brought back nice times spent with my Dad, a keen birdwatcher, over the years. The Dunbeath Water is a magic place and the prehistory there is well worth a visit and not that hard to get to. Thanks again.

PS I love rivers and streams, who doesn't! Thought I'd post this link as reading the book reminded me of it. Can't remember where I saw it first. Sorry if it's been posted on here before.

Meander - Just a lovely word I think

http://roberthodgin.com/project/meander
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Right to Roam
Aug 23, 2020, 17:18
thelonious wrote:
tjj wrote:
Another little book people might like to read is The Fish Ladder by Katherine Norbury ...


Hi tjj. I had a lazy Sunday morning today and finished reading ‘The Fish Ladder’. Just wanted to thank you for recommending it. Well worth spending time with and I’ll let it settle in my head over the next few days. Not my usual sort of book and I’m not that used to reading about someone’s life in such bare detail. So sad at times. Love the places she wrote about. Many I’ve been lucky enough to have visited. Brought back nice times spent with my Dad, a keen birdwatcher, over the years. The Dunbeath Water is a magic place and the prehistory there is well worth a visit and not that hard to get to. Thanks again.

PS I love rivers and streams, who doesn't! Thought I'd post this link as reading the book reminded me of it. Can't remember where I saw it first. Sorry if it's been posted on here before.

Meander - Just a lovely word I think

http://roberthodgin.com/project/meander


Am so pleased to hear you enjoyed Katherine Norbury's book Thelonious - and took the time to read it.

I agree with you about the word 'meander' and have just been looking at the Robert Hodgin maps which must be an unique and totally original work.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6213 posts

Re: Right to Roam
Aug 23, 2020, 21:00
Yes, I've started to engage with the bus service again :)
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Right to Roam - The Book of Trespass
Feb 19, 2021, 23:35
thelonious wrote:
Bit off topic I know.

Posting this link to a blog about Right to Roam in case anyone is interested. We all need access to them stones.

https://markavery.info/2020/08/17/guest-blog-right-to-roam-by-nick-hayes/

More info here

https://www.righttoroam.org.uk/


Hope you don't mind me revisiting this - I was indeed given Nick Hayes' book The Book of Trespass. I didn't open it straight away as received other books too. Now I am reading it and find myself fighting back anger. Not prehistory for sure, Nick Hayes refers back to William the Conqueror as the person who started the theft of common land from the people of our country.

'William embarked on a military campaign called the Harrying of the North, an assault on the commoners just shy of genocide. It was a sustained campaign that began in the north of England and set a precedent that was to be followed right up to the nineteenth century. It was a campaign that relied on brute force, the power of the sword and the horse cutting the ties between the people and the land.
In the words of the Conqueror himself:
In mad fury I descended the English of the north like a raging lion and ordered that their homes and crops with all their equipment and furnishings should be burnt at once and their great flocks and herds of sheep and cattle slaughtered everywhere. So I chastised a great multitude of men and women with lash of starvation and, alas! was the cruel murderer of many thousands, both young and old of this fair people.

I had no idea.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/17/roaming-british-countryside-rights-of-way?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR1utXO5Hf4aNdN_6_CAxZQGmOa8HZLOwJmXWVs9_UBr-WdJKIo0kJt7tJY
GLADMAN
950 posts

Re: Right to Roam - The Book of Trespass
Feb 20, 2021, 00:06
tjj wrote:
thelonious wrote:
Bit off topic I know.

Posting this link to a blog about Right to Roam in case anyone is interested. We all need access to them stones.

https://markavery.info/2020/08/17/guest-blog-right-to-roam-by-nick-hayes/

More info here

https://www.righttoroam.org.uk/


Hope you don't mind me revisiting this - I was indeed given Nick Hayes' book The Book of Trespass. I didn't open it straight away as received other books too. Now I am reading it and find myself fighting back anger. Not prehistory for sure, Nick Hayes refers back to William the Conqueror as the person who started the theft of common land from the people of our country.

'William embarked on a military campaign called the Harrying of the North, an assault on the commoners just shy of genocide. It was a sustained campaign that began in the north of England and set a precedent that was to be followed right up to the nineteenth century. It was a campaign that relied on brute force, the power of the sword and the horse cutting the ties between the people and the land.
In the words of the Conqueror himself:
In mad fury I descended the English of the north like a raging lion and ordered that their homes and crops with all their equipment and furnishings should be burnt at once and their great flocks and herds of sheep and cattle slaughtered everywhere. So I chastised a great multitude of men and women with lash of starvation and, alas! was the cruel murderer of many thousands, both young and old of this fair people.

I had no idea.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/17/roaming-british-countryside-rights-of-way?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR1utXO5Hf4aNdN_6_CAxZQGmOa8HZLOwJmXWVs9_UBr-WdJKIo0kJt7tJY


How ironic that - to take one example, Snowdonia National Park - 2020 saw a much broader cross-section of visitors (for obvious reasons) and far more litter, fires and environmental abuse. As one exasperated ranger pointed out 'Well, you got what you wished for'.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Right to Roam - The Book of Trespass
Feb 20, 2021, 10:31
GLADMAN wrote:

How ironic that - to take one example, Snowdonia National Park - 2020 saw a much broader cross-section of visitors (for obvious reasons) and far more litter, fires and environmental abuse. As one exasperated ranger pointed out 'Well, you got what you wished for'.


So what did that ranger mean exactly, I wonder. Am in no way condoning dropping litter in the countryside, or on the beach, or on the pavements of our town and cities. To exclude people (a cross-section is good) from walking in the countryside because they might drop litter seems perverse. The Kinder Trespass back in 1932 fought for the right to roam - the act of walking on someone else's property is not currently a criminal act. Leaving litter should be, causing damage definitely is.
GLADMAN
950 posts

Re: Right to Roam - The Book of Trespass
Feb 20, 2021, 14:25
tjj wrote:
To exclude people (a cross-section is good) from walking in the countryside because they might drop litter seems perverse. The Kinder Trespass back in 1932 fought for the right to roam - the act of walking on someone else's property is not currently a criminal act. Leaving litter should be, causing damage definitely is.


Seems to me that the ranger was highlighting the fact (evidenced by first-hand knowledge, or so it would appear) that the influx of visitors from previously absent demograhics - something the National Park governing bodies have been advocating for many years - is causing rising instances of anti-social behaviour, environmental damage and impediment to locals working in Snowdonia.... and, specifically, that notice of these outcomes appear to come to those governing bodies as an unpleasant surprise. After all, they bodies have always viewed the 'white middle-class hillwalker' as the 'problem'. I guess it must be embarrassing (at the very least) for them to be presented with contradictory evidence to negate their stereotypical generalisations. As usual, issues are more complex than that and will require a lot more work to balance pollution/erosion etc with everyone's enjoyment across the board. In my opinion, it's nothing to do with 'class' or 'creed' and other such divisive rubbish; everything to do with taking responsibility for your own actions and not harming others.

For what it's worth, in my view 'rights' come - or at least should come - with inherent responsibilities that, if they are abused, should negate those rights for the individuals concerned. Provided visitors treat the countryside and other people with due consideration and respect I am in favour of a Scotland-type full right to roam. To be honest, with a few notable exceptions - such as sections of The Arans, Nantlle Ridge etc - I can confirm from experience such an unofficial state of affairs has been in place for decades in Wales.... I struggle to recall an instance where my request to access somewhere off the beaten track was refused. However, having talked to farmers over the years tales of the crass stupidity and ignorance of some visitors beggars belief. Some landowners, too, naturally.

Criminalising instances of 'trespass' per se is an extreme step that must be resisted at all costs. However, we mustn't lose sight of the fact that the onus is on everybody to treat as they would be treated and respect the countryside. Recent events have only highlighted that some 'groupings' of visitors to our National parks have an awful lot to learn.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Right to Roam - The Book of Trespass
Feb 20, 2021, 15:04
Excellent post Gladman. Agree with you completely.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Right to Roam - Guy Shrubsole
Feb 25, 2021, 17:31
The Spring edition of the Ramblers quarterly magazine 'Walk' has an interview with Guy Shrubsole, co-campaigner with Nick Hayes, and author of ‘Who Owns England’. The interviewer asks him about his statement that 92% of land does not have open access and 97% of are rivers are limits.
Guy’s answer is most definitely worth reading. His opening sentence is to say “that we have access to 8% of England is huge testament and thanks to the work of the Ramblers. The Right to Roam is the core of what the Ramblers are built on”. He talks specifically about Scotland later in the interview.

As a long standing member (though I no longer walk with them) I know what an amazing job they do protecting and maintaining historic footpaths. In their magazine there is also an article headed ‘Walk the Line' – tracks across the landscape not only lead us where we want to go, they can also be expressions of free will and works of artistic beauty – and we should protect them at all costs. It lists and describes seven types of ancient footpath which most of us will recognise – Cairned paths (marked by a man-made heap of stones often at summits), Coffin paths (also known as bier roads and lych ways), Desire Paths (informal shortcuts), Drovers’ Roads, Herepaths (former trade/communication routes between remote settlements), Holloways (sunken ancient paths or roads), and Smile paths – I didn’t know this last one. It is a deviation on defined routes, typically around an obstacle such a fallen tree, puddle or locked gate.
I don’t know if the Walk magazine is generally available in W.H.Smith (is that even still in business) if it is then this edition is excellent value for money (Issue 70: Spring 2021, £3.60).

Something I feel passionate about so apologies if I've rambled on a bit :-)
thelonious
330 posts

Edited Feb 25, 2021, 19:24
Re: Right to Roam - Guy Shrubsole
Feb 25, 2021, 18:57
Thanks for this tjj. The Ramblers do such a good job. Up here too in Scotland along with ScotWays - https://www.scotways.com
I remember tsc mentioned these folks awhile back as well - https://slowways.uk/

I feel we, the general pop, need these folk more than ever. Once something's gone, it's hard to get it back.

I love this site, don't know if there is similar one for England/Wales/Ireland? - http://heritagepaths.co.uk/

Is this the article? I'm anyway to read it now :-)
https://www.ramblers.org.uk/news/walk-magazine/current-issue/2021/february/spring-2021/guy-shrubsole.aspx

Guy Shrubsole's 'Who Owns England' is excellent as too is Andy Wightman's book 'The Poor Had No Lawyers'
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