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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Liddington Warren Farm » Foxhill Farm, nr Liddington. |
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thesweetcheat 6213 posts |
Aug 19, 2013, 13:37
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Rhiannon wrote: ... I'll have my owl service on standby with some ketchup if you like. I'd like to think you'll be eating it off an actual owl service Rhiannon.
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megalith6 46 posts |
Aug 21, 2013, 04:09
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Well, before anyone jumps down my throat again (should be getting used to that by now) I did say the suggested figures were very "reminiscent" of Lleu and Blodeuwedd's saga, I'm not saying they *are* this story. But it wouldn't surprise me if they were. British folk culture is deep - we know how deep thanks to the incredible story of the Cheddar Gorge Man. What appeals to me so much about the imagery is the owl symbol because it reminds me a lot of this - it is the most convincing image for me at Foxhill, if indeed it is an owl? http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_image.aspx?image=ps140811.jpg&retpage=21257 I personally think the Cerne Abbas Giant is a folly; I think the Uffington White Horse is genuine but I wonder if it was always a horse? I do believe Celtic lore can stretch back into prehistory because the Iron Age culture came after the Bronze Age, the cultural continuity only disrupted by the Romans - which is tragic - but I think enough remained to piece together what was lost, some of it at any rate, one day. But a great deal is cultural amnesia: what was Wayland's Smithy called before Wayland - it surely had a name? Some things we may never know now. Cerne is a Celtic place name, it means cairn. The fact that the Church planted an abbey there makes me wonder if Cerne was not a significant location in pre-Christian times, the archaeology there seems to suggest that it was? http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cairn A cairn can be a sepulchral monument and there are plenty of barrows dotted around Cerne Abbas - and a holy well http://www.megalithic.co.uk/a558/a312/gallery/England/Dorset/cernewell_pc101649.jpg
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Aug 21, 2013, 10:36
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megalith6 wrote: Well, before anyone jumps down my throat again (should be getting used to that by now)..British folk culture is deep - we know how deep thanks to the incredible story of the Cheddar Gorge Man. I hestiated in replying as any negative response might be seen as throat jumping , it isn't , merely cautionary . The Cheddar man story is not a continuation of folk lore and the Sykes aspect should maybe be taken with a pinch of salt . A bit like the fag smoking coke snorting mummy the potential level of contamination in these "studies " would never be seen today and must be seen as a possibility ,a retest if possible would be good .Another problem is that the haplotype was mt U5 which is incredibly common in Europe (11%) and Mr Targett may just as well be related to a viking or BA immigrant .
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited Aug 21, 2013, 14:16
Aug 21, 2013, 14:05
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Far from jumping down your throat, I think this has the potential to be a fascinating mystery. It's a given that most hill figures (certainly the white horses of Wiltshire) are not prehistoric - many are relatively recent. The exception being the Uffington White Horse, which as you pointed out may well have looked quite different to how it looks today. I think the Foxhill image, which may well have existed as a land figure, may be medieval. I've been looking at illustrations of medieval rural life and there are similarities in the clothes. http://www.bl.uk/learning/histcitizen/medieval/rural/rurallife.html Also, the owl was not necessarily a good omen in the Middle Ages, the opposite in fact. http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast245.htm Could be this image was a depiction of something rather more unpleasant than our current folk-lore inclinations suggest.
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Aug 21, 2013, 14:25
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The real mystery to me is why people are so willing to believe there's anything in this at all before they've seen anything more than a newspaper article puffing it up. And apparently there's not just one but two figures here! Wouldn't there be any mention of such a thing somewhere written down, drawn, on a coin, whatever? And the discoverer thinks one figure is Neolithic, the other Saxon? When we haven't got any Neolithic or Saxon figures in this country? Does this not ring alarm bells. It really ought to. There's more written examples, anecdotal evidence, drawings, stories, etc of fairies. And apparently they don't even exist!
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 21, 2013, 14:30
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I'm still a bit puzzled about what it is that is casting shadows.
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tjj 3606 posts |
Aug 21, 2013, 14:34
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Rhiannon wrote: The real mystery to me is why people are so willing to believe there's anything in this at all before they've seen anything more than a newspaper article puffing it up. And apparently there's not just one but two figures here! Wouldn't there be any mention of such a thing somewhere written down, drawn, on a coin, whatever? And the discoverer thinks one figure is Neolithic, the other Saxon? When we haven't got any Neolithic or Saxon figures in this country? Does this not ring alarm bells. It really ought to. There's more written examples, anecdotal evidence, drawings, stories, etc of fairies. And apparently they don't even exist! Always willing to listen to what you have to say on any subject Rhiannon - you talk sense and often make me laugh (in a good way). Am just keeping an open mind ... of course I don't where this image has come from or what it is all about but if such a possibility exists then I was just suggesting it may be rooted in medieval rural life.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 21, 2013, 14:41
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... and indeed what mechanism enabled it to show up in a photograph after being ploughed.
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Edited Aug 21, 2013, 14:49
Aug 21, 2013, 14:49
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Could be June, could be. You're right that it's best not to close your mind completely and become a professional cynic. I was just looking at the Long Man of Wilmington, they think that's 1600ish. But there's lots of documentary evidence about it. Which there isn't about these alleged figures. Also, another thought I had, is that if you're going for something visible and 'readable' from afar, to say "We're Here" or "This is What I'm Talking About" or "You over there can spot this from miles away" - you go for something bold, a clear straightforward design. Like the uffington horse - so pared back and elegant. Or in fact the modern white horses. Or indeed the Wilmington man or Cerne Abbas. Not some muddle like this is purported to be, or like the Cambridge one, which was supposed to have a chariot and allsorts. Those are more like some kind of giant art installation, illustrating a whole range of things. They've not got the same simple symbolic impact of a single figure. I'd say that was another nail in the coffin of their credibility.
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited Mar 21, 2014, 21:11
Mar 21, 2014, 21:08
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megalith6 wrote: Once within sight of the long barrow vanished hill figures have been recorded at Fox Hill. http://m.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/10594307.The_hills_have_eyes____and_a_spear/ The spear and owl theme is very reminiscent of Lleu and Blodeuwedd's saga in the Mabinogion collection of medieval stories, so I'm wondering if there is a connection? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blodeuwedd There's plenty of archaeological evidence at Fox Hill. Lleu's story line requires a water course which could be provided by the Liden Brook from which Liddington derives its name. A talk taking place in the Swindon Museum on 28th March for anyone who is interested, or alternatively wishes to express scepticism about the claim that hill figures date back 3,000 years. http://www.swindon.gov.uk/Events/Pages/The-Lost-Chalk-Cut-Hill-Figures-of-Wanborough.aspx http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/11085038.Hill_figures_brought_to_life_for_first_time_in_centuries/
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