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Mustard 1043 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:02
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tjj wrote: Stop shouting, I heard you. I didn't miss anything 'my friend' wrote - so he's passionate about what he believes. I believe he is quite young (compared to me anyway). I don't like to see good people ridiculed - and you clearly don't like being challenged do you - batting words like sanctimonious around has no effect on me whatsoever. Just because you said it doesn't make it fact - its just your opinion. I don;'t mind being challenged at all. What I object to is being challenged by someone who seems to have totally missed the point. Your friend hasn't been ridiculed, and nobody has tried to tell him what to believe. He's simply been pulled up for repeatedly and doggedly asserting that such beliefs are facts. And indeed, I personally feel that your previous post (and this one) have a sanctimonious tone. That's my opinion. I wouldn't dream of suggesting it's a fact ;)
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Mustard 1043 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:05
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Astralcat wrote: Mustard wrote: tjj wrote: Evergreen Dazed wrote: Astralcat wrote: Glastonbury IS a chakra! To illustrate the utter pointlessness of this kind of assertion, i'll just say "No it isn't" and that I know that 3000 years ago it was covered in banana and cream trifle. You won't shift me from that belief. Its my life illusion, metaphysical, garden gnomic view. I really don't know why you have to talk to people like this. I'm going to defend Astralcat because, although I've not met him, know him to be a good, compassionate person who fights vigorously against injustice - whether it be people with disabilities, whales being slaughtered or badgers being killed etc, ect ... a very long list indeed. What does it matter what someone believes about Glastonbury, what is with all this 'prove it' shit. How about a little bit of inclusive courtesy. That applies to Mustard too, lecturing people about humility ... talk about pot - kettle. Did you miss the bit where your nice man dismissed an entire forum of people as boring and soulless, essentially because they don't accept that Glastonbury is a chakra? Here's the bit in question: "You are all just wasting your time and gazing at rocks and arguing about the antiquity of large pebbles. Nothing more. No Soul. No Spirit." So please, spare me the sanctimonious lecture. I couldn't care less what your friend believes. But if he comes to a public forum stating those beliefs as FACTS, then it is not unreasonable to request PROOF. It is also incredibly arrogant behaviour, to elevate one's own personal beliefs above others, by claiming that those beliefs are FACTS. Sense of humour failure ? I thought my post was claerly tongue inc cheek, a gentle wind up so to speak, and I obviously was not referring to everyone here! Some people who contribute are my friends. Anyway, you obsession with FACTS. What about the spirit of a place ? Its natural poetry ? Its inner voice and memory ? These are vitally important. You cannot reduce everything to solely quantifiable facts. The universe includes our dreams, yearnings, visions, loves and sorrows. Places can retain these within the psychic atmosphere.Seriously, have you ever dowsed or meditated at a sacred site ? It's quite amazing what you sometimes experience. These experiences are facts too. Nobody's laughing. I'd suggest it's more a communication failure ;) No, those experiences aren't "facts". They're experiences. Subjective, personal experiences. They are real to YOU, but you can not extrapolate from that FACTS that apply to EVERYONE - such as "Glastonbury is a chakra". We all feel the spirit of these places. That was never the point under discussion. My experiences are mine - they're not yours. Whatever I feel about a place, I can't extrapolate from that FACTS about it, beyond my own subjective experience.
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Astralcat 742 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:06
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Mustard wrote: tjj wrote: Stop shouting, I heard you. I didn't miss anything 'my friend' wrote - so he's passionate about what he believes. I believe he is quite young (compared to me anyway). I don't like to see good people ridiculed - and you clearly don't like being challenged do you - batting words like sanctimonious around has no effect on me whatsoever. Just because you said it doesn't make it fact - its just your opinion. I don;'t mind being challenged at all. What I object to is being challenged by someone who seems to have totally missed the point. Your friend hasn't been ridiculed, and nobody has tried to tell him what to believe. He's simply been pulled up for repeatedly and doggedly asserting that such beliefs are facts. And indeed, I personally feel that your previous post (and this one) have a sanctimonious tone. That's my opinion. I wouldn't dream of suggesting it's a fact ;) But in my experience and to my mind they ARE. They are MY personal facts. Maybe not yours. some of yours are not mine. Isn't that allowed ?
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Mustard 1043 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:06
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Littlestone wrote: As has already been said, the simple insertion of the words ‘I believe’ as in, “I believe places can...) not only frees up the idea from inarguable fact to an interesting possibility, it also allows others to engage with the idea in a more positive way. Exactly this.
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Mustard 1043 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:07
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nigelswift wrote: FYI I bet there's just about no-one here that doesn't believe in and has experienced spirit of place and natural poetry and inner voice - which fact entirely confounds your previous dismissal of us as lacking soul or whatever. (That doesn't mean they all take those experiences to indicate external forces at work though. There are explanations other than yours you know - which is why you have been asked repeatedly to preface what you say with "I think that..." I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with you completely, Nige :)
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Mustard 1043 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:11
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Astralcat wrote: Mustard wrote: tjj wrote: Stop shouting, I heard you. I didn't miss anything 'my friend' wrote - so he's passionate about what he believes. I believe he is quite young (compared to me anyway). I don't like to see good people ridiculed - and you clearly don't like being challenged do you - batting words like sanctimonious around has no effect on me whatsoever. Just because you said it doesn't make it fact - its just your opinion. I don;'t mind being challenged at all. What I object to is being challenged by someone who seems to have totally missed the point. Your friend hasn't been ridiculed, and nobody has tried to tell him what to believe. He's simply been pulled up for repeatedly and doggedly asserting that such beliefs are facts. And indeed, I personally feel that your previous post (and this one) have a sanctimonious tone. That's my opinion. I wouldn't dream of suggesting it's a fact ;) But in my experience and to my mind they ARE. They are MY personal facts. Maybe not yours. some of yours are not mine. Isn't that allowed ? You're moving the goal posts. Clearly if you have experienced something, then that experience is real. But that is not the same thing as extrapolating from that a factual statement such as "the tor is a chakra", because that "fact" would then apply to everyone. So unless you can prove that the tor is a chakra, then that isn't a fact - it's an opinion, a feeling, or a personal belief.
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Astralcat 742 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:18
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Mustard wrote: Astralcat wrote: Mustard wrote: tjj wrote: Stop shouting, I heard you. I didn't miss anything 'my friend' wrote - so he's passionate about what he believes. I believe he is quite young (compared to me anyway). I don't like to see good people ridiculed - and you clearly don't like being challenged do you - batting words like sanctimonious around has no effect on me whatsoever. Just because you said it doesn't make it fact - its just your opinion. I don;'t mind being challenged at all. What I object to is being challenged by someone who seems to have totally missed the point. Your friend hasn't been ridiculed, and nobody has tried to tell him what to believe. He's simply been pulled up for repeatedly and doggedly asserting that such beliefs are facts. And indeed, I personally feel that your previous post (and this one) have a sanctimonious tone. That's my opinion. I wouldn't dream of suggesting it's a fact ;) But in my experience and to my mind they ARE. They are MY personal facts. Maybe not yours. some of yours are not mine. Isn't that allowed ? You're moving the goal posts. Clearly if you have experienced something, then that experience is real. But that is not the same thing as extrapolating from that a factual statement such as "the tor is a chakra", because that "fact" would then apply to everyone. So unless you can prove that the tor is a chakra, then that isn't a fact - it's an opinion, a feeling, or a personal belief. Of course it's all of these, and to me, it's also a 'personal fact', through personal experience ? What on earth is wrong with that ? I'm not saying it has to be your fact, nor yours mine. I don't see the problem.
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Mustard 1043 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:21
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Astralcat wrote: Mustard wrote: Astralcat wrote: Mustard wrote: tjj wrote: Stop shouting, I heard you. I didn't miss anything 'my friend' wrote - so he's passionate about what he believes. I believe he is quite young (compared to me anyway). I don't like to see good people ridiculed - and you clearly don't like being challenged do you - batting words like sanctimonious around has no effect on me whatsoever. Just because you said it doesn't make it fact - its just your opinion. I don;'t mind being challenged at all. What I object to is being challenged by someone who seems to have totally missed the point. Your friend hasn't been ridiculed, and nobody has tried to tell him what to believe. He's simply been pulled up for repeatedly and doggedly asserting that such beliefs are facts. And indeed, I personally feel that your previous post (and this one) have a sanctimonious tone. That's my opinion. I wouldn't dream of suggesting it's a fact ;) But in my experience and to my mind they ARE. They are MY personal facts. Maybe not yours. some of yours are not mine. Isn't that allowed ? You're moving the goal posts. Clearly if you have experienced something, then that experience is real. But that is not the same thing as extrapolating from that a factual statement such as "the tor is a chakra", because that "fact" would then apply to everyone. So unless you can prove that the tor is a chakra, then that isn't a fact - it's an opinion, a feeling, or a personal belief. Of course it's all of these, and to me, it's also a 'personal fact', through personal experience ? What on earth is wrong with that ? I'm not saying it has to be your fact, nor yours mine. I don't see the problem. A "personal fact" is a belief. Are you're now saying "I BELIEVE the tor is a chakra", rather than "the tor IS a chakra"? Beliefs are fine. Nobody is arguing with that. It's asserting those beliefs as facts that causes problems.
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Astralcat 742 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:23
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I agree but literal language can be restrictive. Sometimes we need to try and get behind them if we seek to express a deeper meaning that's limited by them.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 01, 2013, 09:26
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"but a tendency with some to be, as I see it, so steeped in science and materialism that something vital gets lost along the way." But that's an un-called for insult. Why should being steeped in science and materialism lead to something getting lost along the way? It's a line that trips off many peoples' tongues, always those on your side of the fence but I've never heard anyone explain it. Being steeped in science makes "belief" or "faith" harder to maintain but not understanding or appreciation. Seems to me that if that's your stance - that logic, rationality and proof are the enemies of deeper understanding then you're calling for "faith" in exactly the same way as Christians do. I'm sure you know how annoying it is when some of them say the world WAS made in six days. Bet you'd call for proof.
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