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Houses for the dead...what about the living?
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tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 06, 2010, 18:55
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:


Yes East Kennet would be top of my list and the DNA top of the 'wanted' list. It would be hoped that we could finally determine if it was families that were laid to rest there or a mixture of bloodlines.


The results from Prisse La Chariere show that the individuals in the chamber were not related .


Good to see that tests were positive


Positive ?



Yes positive inasmuch that the samples taken were clean.


Ah , gottcha , true , they went to great lengths to avoid any contamination .We have come some way since the Cheddar fiasco .
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Sep 07, 2010, 01:03
Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 00:02
Firstly, thanks Sanctuary for starting a thought provoking thread that prompted me to turn my lap-top back on ... quite late, so apologies in advance for any incoherence.

Rodney Castleden in his excellent book Britain 3000BC makes many references to Orkney as the one the few places where the neolithic way of life in Britain can be observed in a tangible way. In his chapter 'The Castles of Eternity' he says the following.

Two big Orkney tombs, Quoyness and Quanterness, were built to the same plan and in the same materials as an Orcadian stone house. One of the houses at Barnhouse is identical in layout to the tombs: a rectangular room with an entrance passage leading into the middle of one of the long sides and six symmetrically arranged rectangular bed recesses. Here, the architectural metaphor is taken a significant step further – in Orkney people were not just making houses for the dead, but beds for them too. The Orcadians passed from home to tomb, from bed to cist, from sleep to death. Even in the simple cist burials, no more than stone boxes made out of four slabs planted in the ground, were references to the stone box-beds that were standard furniture in Orkney houses at Barnhouse and Skara Brae.

He goes on to say …
There has been a recent tendency to draw attention to the differences between the architecture of long barrows and that of long houses …

A search for a suspected Neolithic village on the island of Westray led to the discovery of a major chambered tomb. This consist of a mound 21m across covering a large (7 x 4.5m) burial chamber, the largest ever found in Britain dating from 3000BC. The chamber is near rectangular, with bowed sides and rounded corners, very like the well known Neolithic houses at Knap of Howar, not far away on Papa Westray. The huge burial chamber was meant to look just like a house. Human fingers and toes found close by suggest a sky-burial site next to the tomb. A family lived in a house; the same family lived on in the family tomb.


I've left a bit out of that last section which also talks about Paul Ashbee's idealized reconstruction of Fussell's Lodge long barrow as a solid long barrow with a pitched roof - the author then goes on to use the Westray barrow to support the idea.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 08:22
tjj wrote:
Firstly, thanks Sanctuary for starting a thought provoking thread that prompted me to turn my lap-top back on ... quite late, so apologies in advance for any incoherence.

Rodney Castleden in his excellent book Britain 3000BC makes many references to Orkney as the one the few places where the neolithic way of life in Britain can be observed in a tangible way. In his chapter 'The Castles of Eternity' he says the following.

Two big Orkney tombs, Quoyness and Quanterness, were built to the same plan and in the same materials as an Orcadian stone house. One of the houses at Barnhouse is identical in layout to the tombs: a rectangular room with an entrance passage leading into the middle of one of the long sides and six symmetrically arranged rectangular bed recesses. Here, the architectural metaphor is taken a significant step further – in Orkney people were not just making houses for the dead, but beds for them too. The Orcadians passed from home to tomb, from bed to cist, from sleep to death. Even in the simple cist burials, no more than stone boxes made out of four slabs planted in the ground, were references to the stone box-beds that were standard furniture in Orkney houses at Barnhouse and Skara Brae.

He goes on to say …
There has been a recent tendency to draw attention to the differences between the architecture of long barrows and that of long houses …

A search for a suspected Neolithic village on the island of Westray led to the discovery of a major chambered tomb. This consist of a mound 21m across covering a large (7 x 4.5m) burial chamber, the largest ever found in Britain dating from 3000BC. The chamber is near rectangular, with bowed sides and rounded corners, very like the well known Neolithic houses at Knap of Howar, not far away on Papa Westray. The huge burial chamber was meant to look just like a house. Human fingers and toes found close by suggest a sky-burial site next to the tomb. A family lived in a house; the same family lived on in the family tomb.


I've left a bit out of that last section which also talks about Paul Ashbee's idealized reconstruction of Fussell's Lodge long barrow as a solid long barrow with a pitched roof - the author then goes on to use the Westray barrow to support the idea.


Thanks tjj, very interesting indeed. I don't have Rodney Castleten's book but it's on my wanted list right now!

I've always had a personal belief that Neolithic man had a far more powerful belief in the Afterlife than is generally supposed and places such as Avebury and Stonehenge etc were built as major 'vehicles' that got them there in their mindset. Quite how it all worked is open to serious debate and for another time but I'm sure smaller stone circles were in a way the 'local' way of attaining the same result. Rather like the Cathedral compared to the village church scenario.
So if this was the case then it would make perfect sense that you had to live somewhere in the Afterlife so why not build a house for them that was possibly the same as the one they lived in whilst living as a mortal soul. As the majority of Long Barrows seem to have been the last resting place of comparatively few people compared to their size, I've supposed that they were either for family groups or those of a higher order that held great sway but were on the whole unrelated…or a mixture of course. The fact that the WKLB for instance was 'open for business' for something like a 1,000 years before being filled in MAY confirm that they were only intended for the special ones and not Joe Bloggs who would have filled it pretty quickly. I further believe in the possibility that until this time the belief was that although you had gone into your Afterlife your soul/spirit still remained on earth (hence the house for the dead) where you were revered and believed to have carried great power and were 'consulted' often in day to day matters such as health, crops, marriage etc and laid down gifts and offerings.
It may have been only when those beliefs you had in the 'departed' were not coming to fruition (health problems, food shortages, severe weather, child deformities etc) that the belief changed when 'outsiders' moved in and the Afterlife was then conveniently changed from an earthy spirit that you could consult, to a heavenly one where it could not be challenged anymore. And is where we are today I suppose!!

While on the subject of houses for the dead/living, there will be for sure many more undiscovered ones with the same basic floor plan that were just houses for the living that have been taken apart and the stones used elsewhere or simply filled in and grassed over because they were built into the ground with the tops level or just above it. Why should people who were well used to working with stone just live in tent type arrangements or wattle and daub shacks when the option was there to build a decent permanent home with a ‘conventional’ roof of its time over it. Like many of us I have visited arrangements where the top of the stones are at ground level and just called chambered tombs and the assumption was that they were burial tombs with the capstones removed. But were they, or were they houses for the living plain and simple with simple roofs now lost in time?

Anyway I'm rambling now but that is my take on it even though it may be way off the mark.

I’m on to my next project now…building a time-machine to go back and prove it all!! All offers of help welcome!! Haaaaaaa haaaaaaaa
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 09:25
Sanctuary wrote:
The fact that the WKLB for instance was 'open for business' for something like a 1,000 years before being filled in MAY confirm that they were only intended for the special ones and not Joe Bloggs who would have filled it pretty quickly.


There was secondary activity at WKLB around 2400 BC at the latest but it is now considered that that the primary deposits were 3670-3635 cal bc and the last internments 3640-3610 cal bc with a suggestion that primary mortuary activity lasted only 10-30 years ,the chamber was then infilled within a century .
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 09:40
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
The fact that the WKLB for instance was 'open for business' for something like a 1,000 years before being filled in MAY confirm that they were only intended for the special ones and not Joe Bloggs who would have filled it pretty quickly.


There was secondary activity at WKLB around 2400 BC at the latest but it is now considered that that the primary deposits were 3670-3635 cal bc and the last internments 3640-3610 cal bc with a suggestion that primary mortuary activity lasted only 10-30 years ,the chamber was then infilled within a century .


Yes and 46 disarticulated skellies is not much to show for it is it after all that time is it unless they were 'special' in one way or another! Whether that truly represented the total amount of internments or whether much was removed (other than the odd lngbone or skull) I don't suppose we'll ever know. The date of 2400BC is when it is believed Silbury 1 was started and in my opinion when beliefs changed as the newcommers arrived and Silbury rose up and 'challenged' the beliefs that the WKLB held! The Swallowhead Springs of course lay between the two and had, in my opinion again, a huge part to play in this!
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 09:53
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
The fact that the WKLB for instance was 'open for business' for something like a 1,000 years before being filled in MAY confirm that they were only intended for the special ones and not Joe Bloggs who would have filled it pretty quickly.


There was secondary activity at WKLB around 2400 BC at the latest but it is now considered that that the primary deposits were 3670-3635 cal bc and the last internments 3640-3610 cal bc with a suggestion that primary mortuary activity lasted only 10-30 years ,the chamber was then infilled within a century .


Yes and 46 disarticulated skellies is not much to show for it is it after all that time is it unless they were 'special' in one way or another! Whether that truly represented the total amount of internments or whether much was removed (other than the odd lngbone or skull) I don't suppose we'll ever know. The date of 2400BC is when it is believed Silbury 1 was started and in my opinion when beliefs changed as the newcommers arrived and Silbury rose up and 'challenged' the beliefs that the WKLB held! The Swallowhead Springs of course lay between the two and had, in my opinion again, a huge part to play in this!


Effectively the start of the Early Bronze Age , West Kennet Avenue also dates from the same period (2400/2500bc ) introduction of metals , beaker burials , sarsens at Stonehenge , bit like the late 60's really .
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 10:19
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
The fact that the WKLB for instance was 'open for business' for something like a 1,000 years before being filled in MAY confirm that they were only intended for the special ones and not Joe Bloggs who would have filled it pretty quickly.


There was secondary activity at WKLB around 2400 BC at the latest but it is now considered that that the primary deposits were 3670-3635 cal bc and the last internments 3640-3610 cal bc with a suggestion that primary mortuary activity lasted only 10-30 years ,the chamber was then infilled within a century .


Yes and 46 disarticulated skellies is not much to show for it is it after all that time is it unless they were 'special' in one way or another! Whether that truly represented the total amount of internments or whether much was removed (other than the odd lngbone or skull) I don't suppose we'll ever know. The date of 2400BC is when it is believed Silbury 1 was started and in my opinion when beliefs changed as the newcommers arrived and Silbury rose up and 'challenged' the beliefs that the WKLB held! The Swallowhead Springs of course lay between the two and had, in my opinion again, a huge part to play in this!


Effectively the start of the Early Bronze Age , West Kennet Avenue also dates from the same period (2400/2500bc ) introduction of metals , beaker burials , sarsens at Stonehenge , bit like the late 60's really .



Yes and likely the Beckhampton Avenue as well and the stones to the Great Circle. They would seem unlikely not to. The Sanctuary timber rings supposedly preceded them but the stones again were probably contemporary with the other stone phases other than the WKLB of course which is from an earlier time. I've always thought that a timber 'complex' was not out of the question as a precursor to the 'real deal' in stone either but don't have much evidence for that I have to admit, but whatever they were trying to achieve could have been completed much sooner in timber!
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 10:33
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
The fact that the WKLB for instance was 'open for business' for something like a 1,000 years before being filled in MAY confirm that they were only intended for the special ones and not Joe Bloggs who would have filled it pretty quickly.


There was secondary activity at WKLB around 2400 BC at the latest but it is now considered that that the primary deposits were 3670-3635 cal bc and the last internments 3640-3610 cal bc with a suggestion that primary mortuary activity lasted only 10-30 years ,the chamber was then infilled within a century .


Yes and 46 disarticulated skellies is not much to show for it is it after all that time is it unless they were 'special' in one way or another! Whether that truly represented the total amount of internments or whether much was removed (other than the odd lngbone or skull) I don't suppose we'll ever know. The date of 2400BC is when it is believed Silbury 1 was started and in my opinion when beliefs changed as the newcommers arrived and Silbury rose up and 'challenged' the beliefs that the WKLB held! The Swallowhead Springs of course lay between the two and had, in my opinion again, a huge part to play in this!


Effectively the start of the Early Bronze Age , West Kennet Avenue also dates from the same period (2400/2500bc ) introduction of metals , beaker burials , sarsens at Stonehenge , bit like the late 60's really .



Yes and likely the Beckhampton Avenue as well and the stones to the Great Circle. They would seem unlikely not to. The Sanctuary timber rings supposedly preceded them but the stones again were probably contemporary with the other stone phases other than the WKLB of course which is from an earlier time. I've always thought that a timber 'complex' was not out of the question as a precursor to the 'real deal' in stone either but don't have much evidence for that I have to admit, but whatever they were trying to achieve could have been completed much sooner in timber!


Not only stone replacing timber at circles but despite timber being a component of many long barrows it was also replaced e.g. at Waylands where the original monument was a lidded wooden box .
BuckyE
468 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 13:25
As Devil's Advocate, I'd say the resemblances could be, maybe not coincidental, exactly, but possibly the result of what might be called "habit of mind"?

As in, "This is the way 'houses' are built." For the living people, the dead ancestors, the animals, the tools, whatever.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Houses for the dead...what about the living?
Sep 07, 2010, 14:58
BuckyE wrote:
As Devil's Advocate, I'd say the resemblances could be, maybe not coincidental, exactly, but possibly the result of what might be called "habit of mind"?

As in, "This is the way 'houses' are built." For the living people, the dead ancestors, the animals, the tools, whatever.


Well I read somewhere that the dead 'Should be able to walk freely amongst us and live in homes that were no different from those they knew'. Hmmm.
It is a popular belief that the dead were 'consulted' in matters of great importance and of course this belief still exists in places such as New Guinea today. I don't know if anyone watched it, but about 18 months ago I watched a programme I think on the Discovery channel where an expert on human orthopedic reconstruction from the States was called in to make some running repairs on a Chieftain that had died about 20 years previously and was propped up in a makeshift chair on this shelf of stone outside. Alongside him were his own father and grandfather who were just a pile of bones on the ground (I couldn't help but laugh when I saw them) but they took it all so seriously. The son of the dead chieftain could no longer speak to his father every day and ask for advice on all matters because he had fallen apart so much. It was extremely moving when the 'repair man' and his team had put him all back together again to see the joy and delight on the face of the son who considered his father alive once again and upright in his chair back on the ledge. What a hell of a belief that is eh!
It then showed how the current chief was demonstrating to his tribe how he was to be mummified and his organs removed on his own death by having something like a goat or sheep stretched out on this frame while he removed all the bits. Being a chippy I would have been tempted to make him his own chair if I'd have been part of that team. No mortise and tenons in that one mind you just vine and goodwill holding it all together!!
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