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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Houses for the dead...what about the living? |
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BuckyE 468 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 03:19
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Sanctuary wrote: ... a Chieftain that had died about 20 years previously and was propped up in a makeshift chair on this shelf of stone outside... Not having seen the show, I don't know exactly what this means. But it doesn't sound like the sadly disarticulated ancestors were living in the house, right? So, even in this intimate situation, the ancestors had their own place, so to speak! Kind of a mother-in-law apartment type of arrangement? So even here the dead have their place, and the living theirs. There aren't many extant examples of Neolithic houses, but comparing the couple I've seen (Scara Brae, Cambous) to barrows (West Kennet, Isbister, Stony Littleton, multiple sites in Brittany, etc.) the actual construction doesn't really seem that similar. It's perhaps reminiscent, in the sense it may use similar techniques, but to me the barrows don't look like particularly nice houses.
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Resonox 604 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 05:28
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BuckyE wrote: So even here the dead have their place, and the living theirs. There aren't many extant examples of Neolithic houses, but comparing the couple I've seen (Scara Brae, Cambous) to barrows (West Kennet, Isbister, Stony Littleton, multiple sites in Brittany, etc.) the actual construction doesn't really seem that similar. It's perhaps reminiscent, in the sense it may use similar techniques, but to me the barrows don't look like particularly nice houses. Yes I'd have to agree that known "graves" aren't at all practical for everyday living...as commonplace observations and coming and goings are a tad restricted(I mentioned one in Carnac in another thread...apparently this was used as a hideout for rebels....again not the most practical place for if it had been discovered there was no easy escape route)...though I recall one grave excavation(can't recall where it was) on television,it was almost to all extents and purposes a "house" where even the table had been laid as for a meal and the body was arranged on the bed with the deceased's wordly goods on him or close by..the lack of widows and firehearth were the only indications that this this wasn't a habitation, just a facsimile for a dead warrior. I'm no archeo...and perhaps houses were at some point built without window openings and heating/cooking facilities...but does anyone really think so??
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 05:55
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Spot the fallacy: Long barrows = Enclosed, comparmentalised spaces. Toolsheds = Enclosed, comparmentalised spaces. Ergo, Long barrows were replica toolsheds.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 06:08
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BuckyE wrote: Sanctuary wrote: ... a Chieftain that had died about 20 years previously and was propped up in a makeshift chair on this shelf of stone outside... Not having seen the show, I don't know exactly what this means. But it doesn't sound like the sadly disarticulated ancestors were living in the house, right? So, even in this intimate situation, the ancestors had their own place, so to speak! Kind of a mother-in-law apartment type of arrangement? So even here the dead have their place, and the living theirs. There aren't many extant examples of Neolithic houses, but comparing the couple I've seen (Scara Brae, Cambous) to barrows (West Kennet, Isbister, Stony Littleton, multiple sites in Brittany, etc.) the actual construction doesn't really seem that similar. It's perhaps reminiscent, in the sense it may use similar techniques, but to me the barrows don't look like particularly nice houses. Yes BuckyE, the dead ancestors were outside. The tribe lived at the base of this mountain/hill which had a shelved section (natural I assumed) about 6' above the ground only yards away from the huts they lived in. It was the most bizzare and sort of spooky thing to witness these three ancestor's remains in varying states of disarticulation just sitting (well one was) with the others just piles of bones on the ground. They quite obviously had a strong belief in the Afterlife to still be talking to a dead person like he was still alive. I must try and find out what the programme was called as it was quite something to watch.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 06:33
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Resonox wrote: Yes I'd have to agree that known "graves" aren't at all practical for everyday living...as commonplace observations and coming and goings are a tad restricted Well to return to my original example and layout, the WKLB type of long barrow without the capstones would make an excellent house for the living, and the dead if it had been roofed in a more traditional way. It had what one could describe as a 'living area' and the side chambers for storage/sleeping/internment. Who's to say that the early burials were not of those that actually lived there initially or indeed later on. I would imagine that if you were still considered to be 'alive' it was no big scary thing to have dead bodies lying around in a side chamber. Some years back now I was working at a very old thatched cottage in Hampshire where we were building a new kitchen onto the rear of the property. This meant removing the decrepid old outhouse that was already attached and where we discovered a brick lined grave beneath ground with the remains of a skellie in...headstone and all of a lady named Elizabeth. The digger driver who unearthed it fled from the scene and was never seen again!! Burials in gardens adjacent to houses used to be very common so why not indoors as well.
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Resonox 604 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 17:23
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Sanctuary wrote: This meant removing the decrepit old outhouse that was already attached and where we discovered a brick lined grave beneath ground with the remains of a skellie in...headstone and all of a lady named Elizabeth. The digger driver who unearthed it fled from the scene and was never seen again!! Surely the police had to question you all(digger driver included)...until the age of the burial was verified...It's the law of the land that all skeleton remains need to be treated as an unlawful death until proven otherwise your honour!
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 17:39
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Resonox wrote: Sanctuary wrote: This meant removing the decrepit old outhouse that was already attached and where we discovered a brick lined grave beneath ground with the remains of a skellie in...headstone and all of a lady named Elizabeth. The digger driver who unearthed it fled from the scene and was never seen again!! Surely the police had to question you all(digger driver included)...until the age of the burial was verified...It's the law of the land that all skeleton remains need to be treated as an unlawful death until proven otherwise your honour! This was in a proper grave with a written headstone...'Here Lyeth...etc' date of birth/death etc so no mystery attached to it. Across the lane was a small chapel so we approached the man in black and told him about it. He had a very modern approach to it all and said that if we notified the authorities they would stop us building for a short while and as it was a mate of his that owned the house he would come and collect the remains and re-bury them for us in the same garden. And that's exactly what he did under a hole a labourer dug under an apple tree. He gave a short prayer and that was it, job done! It was the headstone that came out of the ground first like something out of a horror movie when the leveller on the Bobcat struck the top corner of it on its first run. It was on the second run that the slate covering came off the tomb and the driver did a runner leaving us to deal with it all. Funnily enough when a couple of labourers were pulling the old outhouse down one of them remarked how 'uncomfortable' he felt working in a certain area....no guessing where that was!
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 17:44
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Resonox wrote: Surely the police had to question you all(digger driver included)...until the age of the burial was verified...It's the law of the land that all skeleton remains need to be treated as an unlawful death until proven otherwise your honour! On the other hand..... http://www.heritageaction.org/?page=theheritagejournal&id=244
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Resonox 604 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 17:46
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Sanctuary wrote: This was in a proper grave with a written headstone...'Here Lyeth...etc' date of birth/death etc so no mystery attached to it. Across the lane was a small chapel so we approached the man in black and told him about it. He had a very modern approach to it all and said that if we notified the authorities they would stop us building for a short while and as it was a mate of his that owned the house he would come and collect the remains and re-bury them for us in the same garden. And that's exactly what he did under a hole a labourer dug under an apple tree. He gave a short prayer and that was it, job done! It was the headstone that came out of the ground first like something out of a horror movie when the leveller on the Bobcat struck the top corner of it Sorry that doesn't make any difference...just think if Fred West had just put some pre-stressed headstones with fancy olde worlde writing and false dates on them and made out they were victorian lasses..the local constabulary wouldn't have been able to touch him. ;0)
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 09, 2010, 17:53
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Resonox wrote: Sanctuary wrote: This was in a proper grave with a written headstone...'Here Lyeth...etc' date of birth/death etc so no mystery attached to it. Across the lane was a small chapel so we approached the man in black and told him about it. He had a very modern approach to it all and said that if we notified the authorities they would stop us building for a short while and as it was a mate of his that owned the house he would come and collect the remains and re-bury them for us in the same garden. And that's exactly what he did under a hole a labourer dug under an apple tree. He gave a short prayer and that was it, job done! It was the headstone that came out of the ground first like something out of a horror movie when the leveller on the Bobcat struck the top corner of it Sorry that doesn't make any difference...just think if Fred West had just put some pre-stressed headstones with fancy olde worlde writing and false dates on them and made out they were victorian lasses..the local constabulary wouldn't have been able to touch him. ;0) My boss was more interested to find out if she's been buried with anything worthwhile!!!
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