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Unsung Forum » Question on original 1969 pressing of Alexander Skip Spence's "Oar" |
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Joe Kenney 169 posts |
Edited Mar 23, 2023, 21:40
Mar 23, 2023, 21:39
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Hi everyone, I've never heard the original '69 pressing of Oar -- not even a vinyl rip! I have heard the Sundazed release many times since it was released in 1999, though, as well as the recent box set release and the '91 Sony remix. I am confused about something with the original pressing. According to Discogs, the track length of "Grey/Afro" on the original press of Oar is 12:10. It's listed as 11:27 for the Edsel LP pressing. However "Gray/Afro" is under 10 minutes on both the Sundazed and the Sony releases. So, is this just an error on Discogs, or maybe that track length is taken directly from the LP sleeve, which itself is wrong? I do know of instances like this -- for example the track lengths on the jacket of Fleetwood Mac's "Future Games" are way off from the actual track lengths. And if the original pressing of "Gray/Afro" is really 12:10 (or even 11:27!), how is it different from the 9+ minute Sundazed and Sony releases? Thanks!
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The Seth Man 1242 posts |
Mar 24, 2023, 02:33
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Joe Kenney wrote: Hi everyone, I've never heard the original '69 pressing of Oar -- not even a vinyl rip! I have heard the Sundazed release many times since it was released in 1999, though, as well as the recent box set release and the '91 Sony remix. I am confused about something with the original pressing. According to Discogs, the track length of "Grey/Afro" on the original press of Oar is 12:10. It's listed as 11:27 for the Edsel LP pressing. However "Gray/Afro" is under 10 minutes on both the Sundazed and the Sony releases. So, is this just an error on Discogs, or maybe that track length is taken directly from the LP sleeve, which itself is wrong? I do know of instances like this -- for example the track lengths on the jacket of Fleetwood Mac's "Future Games" are way off from the actual track lengths. And if the original pressing of "Gray/Afro" is really 12:10 (or even 11:27!), how is it different from the 9+ minute Sundazed and Sony releases? Thanks! Hi, Joe. I have the original Columbia LP, Sony Special Products CD, the Sundazed CD and ANDOARAGAIN 3CD box set. The total time of "Grey/Afro" on the original Columbia LP runs exactly 9:36 -- from the first bass note to the point when it completely fades out into silence. I timed it because there are no time lengths listed on the album sleeve or labels. I also had the Edsel CD in the late eighties/early nineties and if I recall correctly, "Grey/Afro" was the version closest to the Columbia LP version in terms of how it sounded as well as its length. The timing of 11:27 for "Grey/Afro" is obviously in error for the simple reason that -- given that the Columbia version of "Grey/Afro" is 9:36 -- two minutes later, you're already halfway through the sprawling "This Time He Has Come" because this is the piece that runs for 4:42 directly after the fade out of "Grey/Afro." The Sony Special Products version of "Grey/Afro" is also an oddity. It's missing the phasing on the drums, the drums aren't as prominent in the mix, and the vocals are far more up in the mix than on the Columbia LP. It also appears to have more reverb applied to all instruments, but that could be made more apparent because of how loud it was mastered. The Sundazed CD and ANDOARAGAIN versions of "Grey/Afro" are exactly the same and run at 9:38. The remastering has more clarity and the phasing on the drums is reinstated. Technical notes aside...what an album, eh?
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Sounder 303 posts |
Mar 24, 2023, 18:23
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Saved me a job there, was going to dig out my original LP and time it. Such as unique and great album
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Joe Kenney 169 posts |
Mar 25, 2023, 14:50
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Thanks so much for the informative response, Seth Man! I really appreciate it! I've wondered about this mystery for longer than I care to admit. I figured it was just an error on Discogs or something. And FYI, I'd totally forgotten that I reviewed that Sony remix CD of "Oar" on here many years ago...like close to 20 friggin' years ago, as hard as that is to believe! Speaking of which I still often read your review of the album -- one of my favorites of yours! Seriously man you should write an actual "Book Of Seth," have you ever thought of it?
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The Seth Man 1242 posts |
Mar 26, 2023, 02:07
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Joe Kenney wrote: Thanks so much for the informative response, Seth Man! I really appreciate it! I've wondered about this mystery for longer than I care to admit. I figured it was just an error on Discogs or something. And FYI, I'd totally forgotten that I reviewed that Sony remix CD of "Oar" on here many years ago...like close to 20 friggin' years ago, as hard as that is to believe! Speaking of which I still often read your review of the album -- one of my favorites of yours! Seriously man you should write an actual "Book Of Seth," have you ever thought of it? Joe, Thanks very much for the compliments, really appreciated. 23 years on, I think I already have written The Book of Seth, but I know what you mean. Who knows, maybe one day it'll see the light of day.
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Edited Mar 26, 2023, 22:36
Mar 26, 2023, 13:23
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What an album indeed! I first heard the Sony CD in the early-mid 90s and it sounded so predictive of some of the lo-fi indie-folk music of the time (e.g. Palace Brothers, Smog, Beck's acoustic stuff) it felt hard to believe it was recorded twenty-five years before. I upgraded to the Sundazed CD after he died as I wanted to hear the original mix (which I do feel is superior in many respects, not least the phasing on "Grey/Afro"). Two further questions I'd like to ask are : 1) Is it worth upgrading again to the 3-disc version? and 2) Seeing as we're discussing psychedelic singer-songwriters whose lives were tragically derailed by mental illness, have you heard the Maitreya Kali albums?
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Sounder 303 posts |
Mar 26, 2023, 21:36
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No not heard any Maitreya Kali will have to check him out. I too have been wondering whether to get Andoaragain - wasn't sure whether it was much more than the Sundazed CD with some extra 'fragments'
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The Seth Man 1242 posts |
Mar 27, 2023, 18:45
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Popel Vooje wrote: What an album indeed! I first heard the Sony CD in the early-mid 90s and it sounded so predictive of some of the lo-fi indie-folk music of the time (e.g. Palace Brothers, Smog, Beck's acoustic stuff) it felt hard to believe it was recorded twenty-five years before. I upgraded to the Sundazed CD after he died as I wanted to hear the original mix (which I do feel is superior in many respects, not least the phasing on "Grey/Afro"). Two further questions I'd like to ask are : 1) Is it worth upgrading again to the 3-disc version? and 2) Seeing as we're discussing psychedelic singer-songwriters whose lives were tragically derailed by mental illness, have you heard the Maitreya Kali albums? Popel Vooje, 1) The first disc is the Sundazed CD (which you already have) but there are two more discs of material that total 2 hours of previously unissued material. Some of it is just vocals and drums, there's seven versions of "Diana", but there are 11 previously unreleased songs. Some might be finished songs and only sound like fragments The Maitreya Kali album INCA (1972) is interesting. Besides always confusing it with the Mystic Shiva album for years (orange cover rare psych collectible), it was recently recommended to me by a British musician who was also a fan of Dino Valente's solo album. There's some stand out tracks where it's just him alone ("Revelation," "Color Fantasy," "Silk And Ivory," "I'm Walkin' Solo,") that almost (and I mean almost) recall Arthur Lee if he was recorded singing with acoustic accompaniment with a massive amount of reverb.
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The Seth Man 1242 posts |
Mar 27, 2023, 19:10
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Joe, I can confirm that the version of "Grey/Afro" on the Edsel CD has a running time of 9:35, despite the fact the back inlay has it at 11:37. The sound is also remarkable close to the original Columbia vinyl LP. Producer David Rubinson recalled in 1999 to David Fricke that "that Spence recorded everything at unusually low volume, 'at minus-20 and minus-30 peaks' on the console meters. And there was very little treble." This explains why the 1991 Sony Music Special Products CD sounds the way it does. They jacked the signal up on a recording that was made at very low levels. That explains all the muffled 'noise' that surrounds the musical instrumentation on "Grey/Afro." HOWEVER... To confound things, the sleeve of the RSD single, "I Want A Rock & Roll Band" / "I Got A Lot To Say" / "Mary Jane" has a sleeve with a reproduction of a tape box from some of the original OAR sessions. It lists three separate tracks as a medley: "Grey," "Afro," and "He Has Come This Time." On the tape box, the following times are handwritten, alongside the titles: "Grey" 8:25 "Afro" (Inst) 2:15 "He Has Come This Time" 4:60 (or: 5:00) Taking the times listed on the tape box, the total time of this medley would be 15:40. Taking the times listed directly from the Sundazed CD tracks, this medley runs for 14:19. I know. What a mess.
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Joe Kenney 169 posts |
Mar 28, 2023, 15:53
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Hey Popel, I have heard that Kali album, I downloaded it years ago, but forgot about it, so thanks for the reminder. I remember it having a bit of an Oar vibe, but as we all know, Oar is such a unique thing. Thought you all might be interested in this: In his review of Spirit's "Spirit of '76" in the August 14, 1975 issue of Rolling Stone, reviewer Bud Scoppa wrote, "From its conception to its sonics, 'Spirit of '76' is this year's eccentric's eccentric record, and Randy California (last heard from as 'Kapt. Kopter' on an unusual Epic album) can take his rightful place alongside Syd Barrett and Alexander (Skip) Spence in the outer limits of rock & roll." I like "Spirit of '76" a lot myself (it's another one with a fine review here on Unsung), but I have to admit I never thought of it like "Oar" until coming across that review in the Rolling Stone CD-ROM a few years ago. In fact, I would've been more prone to think of that "Kapt. Kopter" album more along the lines of Oar, at least in how it's such the product of a scattered mind. One LP I would place somewhere in the orbit of "Oar" would be the self-titled LP by Relatively Clean Rivers, a rural-psych private press from 1976. I'm sure the majority of you on here are familiar with it. Copies go for thousands of dollars and all represses are bootlegs because the guy behind it, who now lives on a goat farm, only considers that first pressing the authentic pressing. However someone got a copy of an original press, cleaned it up, and coverted for FLAC for everyone to enjoy for free: https://upvhq.blogspot.com/2021/06/relatively-clean-rivers-st-1976.html
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