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Unsung Forum » Who's best: Lou Reed or John Cale? |
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Apr 24, 2010, 19:04
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Sin Agog wrote: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYHIqMmtS-0] It seems to me that Cale is getting short shrift (is there such a thing as a regular-sized shrift?) as a melodicist and a songwriter here. His melodies were less reliant on rock 'n' roll archetypes than Lou's. He had the same ability as Bacharach, Brian Wilson and all those cats to just pluck a melody out of the air without ever letting genre come into the picture. And his lyrics... I can see how they might come across more than a little alienating, but I've never listened to anyone who had the same ability to make each line seemingly unrelated to the one before it but still part of a unified whole. Although whenever he gets a yen to write a really cathartic personal song, he always gets it dead right: Leaving it Up to You, Guts, Dying on the Vine. I agree. Despite his extensive classical training, Cale is just as gifted a pop songwriter as Reed - the likes of "Vintage Violence" and "Paris 1919" prove that. Lou was definitely the principle driving force behind the V.U., but it's too simplistic to suggest that Cale was the avant-garde one and Reed was the pop one. I also think that Cale's solo catalogue is more consistent than Reed's, although they've both released some major clunkers ("Caribbean Sunset" and "Rock'n'Roll Heart" come to mind. I'm also not sure how anyone with functioning neurons could describe as song as pregnant with emotion as "I Keep a Close Watch" as icy or detached!
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Apr 25, 2010, 14:34
Apr 25, 2010, 09:30
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Popel Vooje wrote: too simplistic to suggest that Cale was the avant-garde one and Reed was the pop one. Well yes things are never how they are represented in the often semi-literate world of rock criticism (hence my Lennon / McCartney reference) but I doubt very much if Cale would have bothered much with pop music (or pop music would have bothered much with him) as a career choice had he not been in a band with Lou Reed. And I doubt if Lou would have bothered much with the avant garde had he not been in a band with John Cale. They clearly infected each other. I struggle to see Cale as a great songwriter though. A lot of what he does musically to my ear is pastiche (something that classically trained people are especially adept at) - a bit of Beefheart here, some Roy Wood there, a smidge of Roxy, a soupcon of Johnny Cash. Which is why I compare him with Kevin Ayers. Sounds like he is skating along on top of each style rather than immersing himself. It's all entertaining enough and some of it is really moving but lyrically Hammill's solo work goes further with that kind of psycho drama rock n roll catharsis. My ambivalance might also be to do with the fact that a lot of Cale's early 80's stuff sounds like he is genuinely unwell rather than writing from the perspective of an unwell state of mind. Which doesn't sit well with me. I can't listen to much of Syd's solo output for the same reason. Too raw. I don't much like medical photographs either. Cale's the more solid catalogue but Reed's is the one with the fireworks. Growing Up In Public has to be one of the worst records made by an imporant artist. The Bells (title track aside), Take No Prisoners and Street Hassle (again title track aside) are nowhere near as good as some people would have you believe. Not to mention the dross he co-wrte with Nils Lofgren. What were Arista thinking? Cale was never ever that bad on record. Maybe producing other people meant he didn't have to make records if he didn't want to. Though it is hard to look at a lot of the work either of them did without thinking they were making up for lost time and trying to make the money they didn't make in the Velvets. Which is fine as far as it goes but it means that a lot of the work isn't going to stand up to the test of time. Lou had to go a long long time to get his muse back and it was the old stand bys Delmore Schwartz and later New York City and Warhol that lit the fuse. For Cale there were fourteen years between Helen of Troy and Words for the Dying & Drella. Took a war and a mentor's death to wring those two out of him. Were they both a bit stuck in the rock machine perhaps? Can't under estimate Cale's importance to the whole Art Rock movement though. He was in the right place at the right time enough times for his instincts as a talent spotter to be pretty sharp. Like Eno in fact. They both have that Zappa thing of almost having contempt for rock music while making excellent music within that format.
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Apr 25, 2010, 16:05
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Agreed about Reed's late 70s output - those albums on Arista were definitely his creative nadir (whatever he might think). I also take your point about Cale's early 80s stuff being recorded whilst he was in a genuinely fractured state of mind - but then that's why I like "Music for a New Society" (as well as "Kill City", "Loki", "Tonight's the Night" and all those other cathartic missives from rock-bottom-land. Sure, none of them are albums I'd listen to every day - they're too intense for that - but at the very least they demonstrate the willingness of their creators to go out on a limb and make records that reflect how they really felt rather than what their audiences expected of them. I also think that what you said about Cale's early 80s output could also apply to Reed's late 70s stuff - whilst the latter may always have been a hard liver, in the VU/RCA days he sounded as though he still had enough control over his amphetamine habit not to let it interfere with his artistic decisions, whilst from "Rock'n'Roll Heart" onwards you can sense that his personal life was starting to have a detrimental effect on his muse (although I'll confess that "Take No Prisoners" does make me laugh like a drain). Regardless of personal preferences though, I think we'd all agree that the Reed/Cale spat was one of the most productively symbiotic (albeit volatile) partnerships in rock's history. Even on their solo albums they both sometimes sound as though they're still unconsciously competing with each other's legacies despite them not working together anymore (hence "Metal Machine Music"'s resemblance to Cale's "Loop" flexi from 1966).
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Apr 26, 2010, 07:48
Apr 26, 2010, 07:43
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Popel Vooje wrote: Agreed about Reed's late 70s output - those albums on Arista were definitely his creative nadir (whatever he might think). I also take your point about Cale's early 80s stuff being recorded whilst he was in a genuinely fractured state of mind - but then that's why I like "Music for a New Society" (as well as "Kill City", "Loki", "Tonight's the Night" and all those other cathartic missives from rock-bottom-land. Should I give "Music For A New Society" a second chance do you think? I am pretty squeamish when it comes to art born out of addiction and broken states of mind. Art about those things written out of observation is fine. It's when the Art itself is one of the broken bits falling off of someone's psyche that I don't want to look / listen. I think you are right about the rest and the competetive thing certainly worked in Cale's favour. The less he did the more idiotic records Lou made. Neve heard the Cale flexi. Will seek it out and I have just put all the Cale 70s albums on the top of my pile for the week. Looking forward to visiting Guts, SLow Dazzle and Helen of Troy again. Oh and what's "Loki"?
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Carlos 3884 posts |
Apr 26, 2010, 08:10
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I don't know about Loki too!!!
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Edited Apr 26, 2010, 08:51
Apr 26, 2010, 08:50
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You've never heard of "Loki?", Carlos? You surprise me. It's Arnaldo Baptista's solo album from 1974.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Apr 26, 2010, 09:41
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Popel Vooje wrote: You've never heard of "Loki?", Carlos? You surprise me. It's Arnaldo Baptista's solo album from 1974. Not a clue. Should I seek it out?
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Sin Agog 2253 posts |
Edited Apr 26, 2010, 11:39
Apr 26, 2010, 10:26
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IanB wrote: Popel Vooje wrote: Agreed about Reed's late 70s output - those albums on Arista were definitely his creative nadir (whatever he might think). I also take your point about Cale's early 80s stuff being recorded whilst he was in a genuinely fractured state of mind - but then that's why I like "Music for a New Society" (as well as "Kill City", "Loki", "Tonight's the Night" and all those other cathartic missives from rock-bottom-land. Should I give "Music For A New Society" a second chance do you think? I am pretty squeamish when it comes to art born out of addiction and broken states of mind. Art about those things written out of observation is fine. It's when the Art itself is one of the broken bits falling off of someone's psyche that I don't want to look / listen. It sounds to me like you'd probably enjoy Fragments of A Rainy Season more. Similar vibe, sans that gonzo element you don't go for. Just Cale, a piano and one hell of a songbook. That's the one with his version of Hallelujah on it. And I heard Loki. I wouldn't say I was either overwhelmed or underwhelmed by it- just whelmed. I far prefer Rita Lee as far as Os Mutantes solo albums go, but that might have something to do with the fact that they're pretty much Mutantes albums with a different name, considering most of the members play on them. To be fair, I haven't tried all that hard with Loki; I think it's the kind of record that you have to do some work with to get the most out of it.
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Edited Apr 26, 2010, 13:42
Apr 26, 2010, 10:28
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IanB wrote: Popel Vooje wrote: You've never heard of "Loki?", Carlos? You surprise me. It's Arnaldo Baptista's solo album from 1974. Not a clue. Should I seek it out? It depends. I don't know if you're familiar with much Tropicalia - Arnaldo Baptista was the keyboardist and one of the two main songwriters in Os Mutantes. If you're not familiar with them (or Caetano Velose, Gilberto Gil, or Tom Ze, or Gal Costa) it's probably worth seeking out a good compilation of their stuff first rather than diving straight in at the deep end (especially as "Loki?" is now only available on a pricey Brazilian CD that imports here for around £20 ). If you're starting from scratch with the entire genre, Soul Jazz' "Tropicalia - A Brazilian Revolution in Sound" is probably the best primer. "Loki?" is something akin to the Brazilian equivalent of "The Madcap Laughs" or "Oar" - written and recorded whilst Baptista was suffering from a debilitating, partially drug-induced bout of mental illness (which would eventually cause him to get sectioned and jump out of the hospital's ninth storey window) - so if you don't enjoy music made by people with bona fide mental health problems you might find it a bit too close to the bone. Same goes for "Music for a New Society" - Cale obviously had a serious drink problem at the time and it shows in performances which are disjointed, maudlin and, in the case of "Damn Life", quite plainly the work of a man at the end of his rope. Having said that, I do think that "Taking Your Life in Your Hands" and "Close Watch" are lovely enough songs for anyone to enjoy, despite their downbeat nature. Whilst I'm not into romanticising anything as horrible as mental illness myself, I do prefer listening to music made by people in a genuine predicament over the lame, , affected, theatrical angst peddled by the likes of Marilyn Manson. I was only surprised Carlos hadn't heard of "Loki?" because Tropicalia is his specialist area and he usually knows a damn sight more about it than I do.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Apr 26, 2010, 10:29
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Sin Agog wrote: IanB wrote: Popel Vooje wrote: Agreed about Reed's late 70s output - those albums on Arista were definitely his creative nadir (whatever he might think). I also take your point about Cale's early 80s stuff being recorded whilst he was in a genuinely fractured state of mind - but then that's why I like "Music for a New Society" (as well as "Kill City", "Loki", "Tonight's the Night" and all those other cathartic missives from rock-bottom-land. Should I give "Music For A New Society" a second chance do you think? I am pretty squeamish when it comes to art born out of addiction and broken states of mind. Art about those things written out of observation is fine. It's when the Art itself is one of the broken bits falling off of someone's psyche that I don't want to look / listen. It sounds to me like you'd probably enjoy Fragments of A Rainy Season more. Similar vibe, sans that gonzo element you don't go for. Just Cale, a piano and one hell of a songbook. That's the one with his version of Hallelujah on it. And I heard Loki. I wouldn't say I was either overwhelmed or underwhelmed by it- just whelmed. I far prefer Rita Lee as far as Os Mutantes solo albums go, but that might have something to do with the fact that they're pretty much Mutantes albums with a different name, considering most of the members play on them. OK thanks. I know less than nothing about Os Mutantes. One of those names that drifts on and off of the radar without my doing anything about checking them out. Will try Fragments too. Just marvelling how much The Bunnymen owe to "Save Us" from Helen Of Troy!
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