Squid Tempest
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Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 10:04
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ToneStone wrote: Coming from a forum hosted by a great man who did an LP called "Jehovahkill"
I can almost taste the irony , like licking a battery
How did that line of Julian's go recently - "If you gotta friend in Jesus, get the hell outta my life"?
I'm just suprised anyone of a religious bent has bothered hanging around these forums. Or even those who feel religions deserve to be respected for that matter. This is the last place I would have expected this kind of discussion to take place. Except, perhaps for Stray's contributions - I knew (sort of) where he stands.
FWIW Tonestone I've enjoyed your posts on this thread. I suspect that Dodge hasn't really grasped your irony though.
Ah well, that'll be the deicide...
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handofdave
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Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 11:36
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So, if Julian Cope hates Jesus, we're all supposed to hate Jesus too, is that it?
Who is religious here? I see no evidence of it. And I haven't been 'defending religion', I've only said that most Xtians (most people on earth if you extend Tone Stone's 'logic') aren't deserving of statements like 'the only good one is a dead one', which is a shockingly right-wing-sounding, ugly thing to say.
I don't care for religious intolerance one bit. What's the difference if it's an atheist talking prejudiced trash?
Ultimately it's the same damn thing.
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Squid Tempest
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Edited Oct 09, 2009, 11:54
Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 11:40
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handofdave wrote: So, if Julian Cope hates Jesus, we're all supposed to hate Jesus too, is that it?
Not at all, I was just expressing suprise that people were shocked to see anti-religious sentiments expressed here. And as for Tonestone's "good xtian/dead xtian" thing, I don't think he was being entirely serious, as I think he said later he was quoting a song.
Edit: and what "religious predjudice" was I displaying? I have merely been talking from the point of view of someone who doesn't believe in something that seems (to me) scientifically unlikely. Is that predjudice? I don't hate people who have religious beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them does it?
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handofdave
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Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 12:12
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Squid Tempest wrote: handofdave wrote: So, if Julian Cope hates Jesus, we're all supposed to hate Jesus too, is that it?
Not at all, I was just expressing suprise that people were shocked to see anti-religious sentiments expressed here. And as for Tonestone's "good xtian/dead xtian" thing, I don't think he was being entirely serious, as I think he said later he was quoting a song.
Edit: and what "religious predjudice" was I displaying? I have merely been talking from the point of view of someone who doesn't believe in something that seems (to me) scientifically unlikely. Is that predjudice? I don't hate people who have religious beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them does it?
There is a difference between hating religion in general and saying that each and every person who is religious is someone to shun and abhor. "You believe in a sky God? Wow, you must be some kind of psychotic idiot" sounds pretty much exactly the same as "You don't believe in God? You're going to hell" to me.
I don't hate people because they're Xtians, or Atheists, or Muslims, or what have you... I hate 'em when they have the nerve to think that they have the sole truth, and everyone else is condemnable.
For Chrissakes (no pun intended), what's happened to distinctions? I fucking HATE it when people oversimplify an issue. I hate it even more when they lump huge numbers of people into a single category and then blanket condemn them all based on the worst examples. That is prejudice, the last time I checked.
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Lawrence
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Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 12:15
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Well I tend to be 'religious' but I don't follow any church if that's what anyone thinks. Again, used to be 'Satanist' but really wanted to be 'pagan' (whatever that really means today...) but now I don't really know what I am. I could say I'm 'agnostic' but I think that term is crap...
Then again with all of Cope's blasting of religion, what about his dabblings with European paganism anyways? That's not essentially 'religious'?
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Squid Tempest
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Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 12:32
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handofdave wrote: Squid Tempest wrote: handofdave wrote: So, if Julian Cope hates Jesus, we're all supposed to hate Jesus too, is that it?
Not at all, I was just expressing suprise that people were shocked to see anti-religious sentiments expressed here. And as for Tonestone's "good xtian/dead xtian" thing, I don't think he was being entirely serious, as I think he said later he was quoting a song.
Edit: and what "religious predjudice" was I displaying? I have merely been talking from the point of view of someone who doesn't believe in something that seems (to me) scientifically unlikely. Is that predjudice? I don't hate people who have religious beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them does it?
There is a difference between hating religion in general and saying that each and every person who is religious is someone to shun and abhor. "You believe in a sky God? Wow, you must be some kind of psychotic idiot" sounds pretty much exactly the same as "You don't believe in God? You're going to hell" to me.
I don't hate people because they're Xtians, or Atheists, or Muslims, or what have you... I hate 'em when they have the nerve to think that they have the sole truth, and everyone else is condemnable.
For Chrissakes (no pun intended), what's happened to distinctions? I fucking HATE it when people oversimplify an issue. I hate it even more when they lump huge numbers of people into a single category and then blanket condemn them all based on the worst examples. That is prejudice, the last time I checked.
Err, I know I have a faulty memory, but I really don't remember calling Christians "psychotic idiots"! You've really got me wrong, too, if you think I hate Christians, I just don't understand the mindset, and I get involved in discussions like this partially in order to get my head around it. What I do hate though is the idea that religions deserve "respect". I can tolerate people being christian, but not if they force their views down my throat. same goes for other religions too.
An example of this from real life...
I have a muslim aquaintance at work. He knows that I am a vegetarian, but still insisted on telling me about how he had forced his 8 year old son to slaughter a lamb as part of a ritual. From my POV this borders on abuse, not to mention cruelty, and yet I was expected to think that this was indeed a fine thing, and to accept it - in other words to "show respect" for his religious views.
I agree with what you say about generalising, it is a bad habit. Nonetheless, when considering something like Cathlosism (sp?), it is hard not to generalise at times, given that (I may be wrong here) they are all supposed to follow the edicts of that pope chappy.
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handofdave
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Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 12:48
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Atheism is just another form of faith. It's the declaration of the absence of God based on a belief.
Seeing as nobody can prove or disprove God's existence, from where I stand I see two sides of the same coin when it comes to the religion-atheism quarrel.
Being an atheist, and demonizing religious folk for having belief, is hypocrisy, therefore.
Not to mention, the irony of the situation... Atheism is by design the rejection of God. If you reject that something exists, you are, paradoxically, validating someone else's belief if you then fail prove that you are right and they are wrong.
Call it fence sitting if you want... I am unafraid to admit that I have no idea whether there's a god or gods or a heaven or hell or any of that. It's not been in my experience, and I don't have the senses or tools to detect them and measure them even if they were. I am happy to remain skeptical, but open to new information.
In the interests of intellectual honesty and plain old human kindness I don't judge people by how their sense of awe manifests. If then they cross over into being zealots and closed-minded fanatics, or even if they're just unpleasant people, you'll hear me say something bad about 'em. But I give respect when I get respect, and I've for the vast majority of my life been treated with courtesy by the people of faith I have dealt with. I simply don't have a beef with them.
I wasn't raised with religion. Maybe that's the big difference between Tone Stone and me... I'm not running or rebelling from an extreme example of Xtianity. I might very have ended up bitter about religion too. But what I said above would still hold up.
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Squid Tempest
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Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 12:49
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Lawrence wrote: Well I tend to be 'religious' but I don't follow any church if that's what anyone thinks. Again, used to be 'Satanist' but really wanted to be 'pagan' (whatever that really means today...) but now I don't really know what I am. I could say I'm 'agnostic' but I think that term is crap...
Then again with all of Cope's blasting of religion, what about his dabblings with European paganism anyways? That's not essentially 'religious'?
Yeah, I've always thought he was a bit inconsistent with that. Why is "Odinism" or whatever it is better than any other religious belief?
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Squid Tempest
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Edited Oct 09, 2009, 12:53
Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 12:52
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handofdave wrote: Atheism is just another form of faith. It's the declaration of the absence of God based on a belief.
I think you are fundamentally wrong there, Dave. Atheism (please note that I don't class myself as an atheist) is not necessarilly a form of faith based belief. It can come from the basic scientific method viewpoint: this requires not believing in something for which there is no concrete evidence.
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handofdave
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Re: Re:
Oct 09, 2009, 13:01
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I am unaware of any scientific evidence that conclusively either disproves or proves the existence of God, angels, demons, ghosts, evil spirits, etc.
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