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thesweetcheat 6213 posts |
Apr 30, 2017, 20:38
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I don't particularly want to get into making personal comments, but since I've been mentioned by name I will just say that what I believe in is equality and social justice. I believe that these things are being deliberately prevented by Tory policies and I would like to understand why people keep voting for inequity and inequality as a choice. Tony Wilson said this about socialism, and it's good enough for me as the basis for how I think about most political issues. Underneath all the flannel and spin, this is at the heart of my political views: "Socialism isn't complex, it means a deep, central belief, natural in your heart, that the poor should not be so poor and the rich should not be so rich". I genuinely struggle to understand why people do not think that this is how a just and fair society should operate, or why people vote Tory in the full knowledge that doing so increases inequality as the few get better off at the expense of the many. Arguments that we can't afford to provide for the needy are clearly nonsensical when the UK is the fifth wealthiest country on the planet - what's needed is wealth redistribution, not cuts. I personally believe in proportionate taxation of wealth, and pay a pretty big chunk of my income in tax (certainly a much bigger percentage that the corporations who earn billions do). I do so in the hope that it is used wisely by those in power, but see no evidence of this from the Tory government that had mishandled the economy far worse than any Labour government ever did, while ensuring that those with vested interests (Capita, Serco, G4, etc) continue to profit handsomely from the taxpayer while delivering far worse services for more money. I am not ashamed of my beliefs and therefore I answer questions about them from sanshee and Littlestone (why I voted remain, etc). My answers are only my opinion. I do struggle to understand what makes Tory voters so reluctant to give their reasons for voting Tory. None of the three people in this thread who have stated, without being asked or pressured, that they will vote Tory have been willing to say which Tory policies have made them take this decision. My own opinion on Tory policies is that they are geared to helping the selfish and greedy, or those with right wing views. But that's merely my opinion and I must be missing something, because there is obviously an attraction to voting Tory that I can't for the life of me see but many others can.
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drewbhoy 2557 posts |
May 01, 2017, 06:45
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Well said tsc, the other thing I can't understand is that Labour are encouraging their support to vote Tory in Scotland. A very sad state of affairs.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
May 01, 2017, 07:39
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thesweetcheat wrote: "Socialism isn't complex, it means a deep, central belief, natural in your heart, that the poor should not be so poor" Of course. And the implication and invariable result of Toryism is the reverse, (even though most Tory voters, mostly decent people, delude themselves into thinking otherwise). But I wonder why you don't see Brexit as an equally core issue in this election, given that the one sure consequence of Brexit, is that the poor will be poorer?
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thesweetcheat 6213 posts |
Edited May 01, 2017, 09:06
May 01, 2017, 09:04
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My thinking on that is simply that May didn't need to call the election for Brexit. She has a majority, Labour have made it clear they won't block her and she said to Sturgeon that the country does not need the uncertainty of another vote (in the context of IndyRef2 obviously). She has simply seen this as an opportunity to exploit a weak opposition trailing in the polls and give herself five years with a bigger majority to push through her real agenda. We already know from her time as Home Secretary that she is intent on reducing rights and freedoms and giving greater powers to the security services. The Telegraph is now pushing the need to scrap clean energy policies in favour of cheap because that's what we need in post-Brexit Britain apparently. The NHS is dying on its feet as tjj's stark post shows all too clearly. To my mind this is simply opportunism, Brexit has presented the opportunity to redraw the balance and to legitimise many long-desired Tory policies on the basis of post-Brexit necessity. Our ability to negotiate with EU27 will not be affected by the size of May's majority, but rather by the ineptness of Davies et al. The other issue lurking in the background is the ongoing investigations into Tory election fraud during GE2015, this represents an opportunity to bury that too. [edited for typos]
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thesweetcheat 6213 posts |
May 01, 2017, 09:08
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Have you seen May hiding in the woods on your travels?
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thesweetcheat 6213 posts |
May 01, 2017, 09:17
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nigelswift wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: "Socialism isn't complex, it means a deep, central belief, natural in your heart, that the poor should not be so poor" Of course. And the implication and invariable result of Toryism is the reverse, (even though most Tory voters, mostly decent people, delude themselves into thinking otherwise) By the way, I don't entirely agree that they delude themselves. In the absence of evidence or explanation as to how voting Tory can do anything but the reverse (as you rightly say), it must be more than self delusion, it has to be a deliberate ignoring of an inconvenient truth because there is some advantage to themselves (not sure what though) in voting for a party that demonstrably fails every time it is in power to reduce the gap between rich and poor and in fact goes out of its way increase that gap.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
May 01, 2017, 09:28
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Our ability to negotiate with EU27 will not be affected by the size of May's majority.... Indeed, and every day that goes by it becomes clearer UK will get exactly what it's given, nothing else, which is a national humiliation completely at odds with the bus people's talk of a "negotiation" and that "they have more to lose than us". We have nothing that Europe isn't prepared to forego in order to ensure we come out of this as worse off. Even the threat of not paying the £50 billion end payment isn't frightening them. "Europe isn't a golf club" they told May. There's now talk that Macron will bring about major reform to Europe, which would make the Brexit case even less convincing. What a bloody time to be bailing out.
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moss 2897 posts |
May 01, 2017, 10:34
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1) [quote="thesweetcheat"]I don't particularly want to get into making personal comments, but since I've been mentioned by name I will just say that what I believe in is equality and social justice. I believe that these things are being deliberately prevented by Tory policies and I would like to understand why people keep voting for inequity and inequality as a choice. 2)"Socialism isn't complex, it means a deep, central belief, natural in your heart, that the poor should not be so poor and the rich should not be so rich". I applaud your conviction, but just think that there is little to overcome the complacency and corruption that lies at the bottom of our society, it is endemic. Striving for an idealistic socialist goal should always be the aim, what I find though is that there is little disruption in the society we live in, why aren't people protesting on the streets, why aren't judges, as they are doing in America, upending the destructive policies of their idiot president. Our media speculates ad infinitum (as they do here on this thread) where does it get us? I believe a little chaos and revolution would not come amiss, outside this small country of ours we see tyrants and the right becoming stronger, will the EU survive that? What we need is a new political system, basic income maybe, and a few greedy people slammed into prison for a long life sentence. There is a whole raft of wrongdoing out there, not sure the Labour party will be able to do anything about it. So my choice is either not vote, or tactically vote labour, or as someone said 'vote for your mindset' which is the environment. I believe there are a lot of good people out there still prepared to help their fellow human beings, overcome their complacency, cut out central government (waste of space) think that is happening already and we may get somewhere.
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited May 02, 2017, 23:00
May 01, 2017, 10:42
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thesweetcheat wrote: I don't particularly want to get into making personal comments, but since I've been mentioned by name I will just say that what I believe in is equality and social justice. I believe that these things are being deliberately prevented by Tory policies and I would like to understand why people keep voting for inequity and inequality as a choice. Tony Wilson said this about socialism, and it's good enough for me as the basis for how I think about most political issues. Underneath all the flannel and spin, this is at the heart of my political views: "Socialism isn't complex, it means a deep, central belief, natural in your heart, that the poor should not be so poor and the rich should not be so rich". I genuinely struggle to understand why people do not think that this is how a just and fair society should operate, or why people vote Tory in the full knowledge that doing so increases inequality as the few get better off at the expense of the many. Arguments that we can't afford to provide for the needy are clearly nonsensical when the UK is the fifth wealthiest country on the planet - what's needed is wealth redistribution, not cuts. I personally believe in proportionate taxation of wealth, and pay a pretty big chunk of my income in tax (certainly a much bigger percentage that the corporations who earn billions do). I do so in the hope that it is used wisely by those in power, but see no evidence of this from the Tory government that had mishandled the economy far worse than any Labour government ever did, while ensuring that those with vested interests (Capita, Serco, G4, etc) continue to profit handsomely from the taxpayer while delivering far worse services for more money. I am not ashamed of my beliefs and therefore I answer questions about them from sanshee and Littlestone (why I voted remain, etc). My answers are only my opinion. I do struggle to understand what makes Tory voters so reluctant to give their reasons for voting Tory. None of the three people in this thread who have stated, without being asked or pressured, that they will vote Tory have been willing to say which Tory policies have made them take this decision. My own opinion on Tory policies is that they are geared to helping the selfish and greedy, or those with right wing views. But that's merely my opinion and I must be missing something, because there is obviously an attraction to voting Tory that I can't for the life of me see but many others can. This is a great piece of writing tcs and I hope you don't mind me quoting it in full. Read it last night but was reluctant to answer in case anything I say is misinterpreted. Lovely tribute to Tony Wilson too who, my partner (and best friend) tells me, was a principled socialist. I'm proud to say so too are my sons, my brother, my nieces. And of course ... K (always my political compass when I start to veer off course). I am as pessimistic about the outcome of Brexit as Nigel is, especially as it now seems Brexit will be a catalyst for change within the EU. As artist Cornelia Parker said on a news programme this morning we are living through an important time in history. As an aside - I recently read 'Bone Clocks' by David Mitchell - the final chapter is set in 2043 and is the most disturbing part of the novel in its prescience (recommended).
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
May 01, 2017, 11:16
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thesweetcheat wrote: I don't particularly want to get into making personal comments, but since I've been mentioned by name I will just say that what I believe in is equality and social justice. I believe that these things are being deliberately prevented by Tory policies and I would like to understand why people keep voting for inequity and inequality as a choice. Tony Wilson said this about socialism, and it's good enough for me as the basis for how I think about most political issues. Underneath all the flannel and spin, this is at the heart of my political views: "Socialism isn't complex, it means a deep, central belief, natural in your heart, that the poor should not be so poor and the rich should not be so rich". I genuinely struggle to understand why people do not think that this is how a just and fair society should operate, or why people vote Tory in the full knowledge that doing so increases inequality as the few get better off at the expense of the many. Arguments that we can't afford to provide for the needy are clearly nonsensical when the UK is the fifth wealthiest country on the planet - what's needed is wealth redistribution, not cuts. I personally believe in proportionate taxation of wealth, and pay a pretty big chunk of my income in tax (certainly a much bigger percentage that the corporations who earn billions do). I do so in the hope that it is used wisely by those in power, but see no evidence of this from the Tory government that had mishandled the economy far worse than any Labour government ever did, while ensuring that those with vested interests (Capita, Serco, G4, etc) continue to profit handsomely from the taxpayer while delivering far worse services for more money. I am not ashamed of my beliefs and therefore I answer questions about them from sanshee and Littlestone (why I voted remain, etc). My answers are only my opinion. I do struggle to understand what makes Tory voters so reluctant to give their reasons for voting Tory. None of the three people in this thread who have stated, without being asked or pressured, that they will vote Tory have been willing to say which Tory policies have made them take this decision. My own opinion on Tory policies is that they are geared to helping the selfish and greedy, or those with right wing views. But that's merely my opinion and I must be missing something, because there is obviously an attraction to voting Tory that I can't for the life of me see but many others can. Hi tsc. A measured and heartfelt post. May I say however that there's often a tendency (and I'm probably guilty of this as well) to be selective in one's replies. For example (returning to earlier posts), I never said that Yugoslavia was in Europe, I said the EU did little or nothing to prevent the Yugoslav Wars. Nor did the EU, as an aspiring federal unit, do anything to address the appalling conditions at the Calais Jungle Camp - a camp within its very own borders. Nor indeed has the EU a coherent policy on the migrant issue. When push comes to shove individual EU states tend to act in their own interests leaving, in this case, an impoverished Greek economy to bear the brunt of the problem. It’s this lack of moral conviction on the part of the EU that worries me very, very deeply and makes me think that it (the EU) is really no more than a monstrous capitalist wolf in sheep’s clothing. I might be totally wrong about that however and am prepared to say so here. Time will tell. On the question of the Tory manifesto (that you also raised elsewhere) unless I’ve missed it that manifesto is yet to be published so it’s a little difficult for me to comment on it even if I wanted to. That aside, I’ve made it abundantly clear here and elsewhere that I am not a Tory voter but a Theresa May supporter (and I’ll take what might seem a contradiction of terms on the chin there). I support May because I’m of the opinion that she is the only party leader we have at present with the wherewithal to steer us through some very, very tricky Brexit negotiations. If anyone can suggest someone else to get us through those negotiations I’m all ears. Meanwhile remember that Theresa May has been an MP for twenty years and the longest-serving Home Secretary for over 60 years – that’s a formidable track record and not one to be casually brushed aside. That said, come the next election (after this one) I shall be voting according to my conscience which, surprising as it may seem, is not that far removed from your own. :-)
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