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phallus dei 583 posts |
Edited Nov 16, 2015, 17:45
Nov 16, 2015, 14:01
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dhajjieboy wrote: I myself deny the very premise of 'they become martyrs'.... This is surely 1 way to deny 'them' legitamacy. If in fact Islam is a peacefull religion, it is the Islamist's themselves that need to make this point as a collective entity. One could easily make a similar argument regarding the West - "If in fact the West is 'civilized,' it is the West itself that needs to make this point as a collective entity" Instead, the West has a multi-century habit of destroying most of the world through political and economic means, treating those whom they destroy as backward sub-humans with no culture while simultaneously patting themselves on the back for how "progressive" and "civilized" they are. In short, considering that ISIS is not a "legitimate" government, and has only come to power through terrorizing the population, I don't think "Muslims" as a whole are under any moral burden to apologize for a group of whackos who misrepresent them. On the other hand, if the West really is the "democracy" it claims, then Westerners must bear at least some responsibility for what their governments do in their name. (And no, I am NOT suggesting France "deserved" the recent attack. What I am saying is that I find the whole "Muslims should apologize" argument extremely hypocritical.) As to whether Islam is inherently violent or not, my response would be to ask, what religion isn't? I used to have some naïve hope in Buddhism but now in Myanmar we've even got Buddhist monks advocating the ethnic cleansing of the country's Rohingya minority. So the "Islam is a violent religion" argument also doesn't cut it in my book, considering that every established religion is in large part a way to keep certain groups in power at the expense of others. |
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spencer 3071 posts |
Nov 16, 2015, 14:16
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15-30/18-30/22-30. Opened my eyes. Informed, worrying lucidity.
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laresident 861 posts |
Nov 16, 2015, 17:43
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| Canada has always been a good one during times of world psychosis. Iceland even better but I bet the language is a bugger. | |||
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dhajjieboy 913 posts |
Nov 16, 2015, 18:15
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I never said that "muslims should apologize"....anywhere... I believe that i made myself quite clear that the Islamic world would do well for themselves to police there own. If they do not take up this responsibility for themselves, the enevitable backlash will be from the western world. Retaliation is quite a different thing from revenge. Nothing that will be said here will change that. |
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phallus dei 583 posts |
Nov 16, 2015, 20:09
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dhajjieboy wrote: I never said that "muslims should apologize"....anywhere... I believe that i made myself quite clear that the Islamic world would do well for themselves to police there own. If they do not take up this responsibility for themselves, the enevitable backlash will be from the western world. Retaliation is quite a different thing from revenge. Nothing that will be said here will change that. Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I got the feeling that you were implying that Muslims as a group bear some sort of collective responsibility for Isis. I don't agree with that, as I said in my previous post. It also seems unfair to ask them to police themselves when we've destroyed the previous countries where Isis now chiefly operates. I agree that nothing we say here will change anything... Still, the difference between what will happen and what should happen is not totally insignificant. What will happen is that the West will use the Paris attacks as a pretext to further erode our rights and expand the scope of their imperialistic plunder. What should happen is that we (the West and the rest) have an honest dialogue about how we got to this point and try to start viewing and treating each other as human beings. Never mind that what should happen won't happen. By rejecting fear and hate mongering we are at least asserting our belief in hope in an increasingly tyrannical and hopeless world.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Edited Nov 17, 2015, 13:55
Nov 17, 2015, 13:51
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Now there is a search on for one of the terrorists, I can totally understand that many wold prefer to see him dead. It would be no great loss and indeed it may be the only way to deal with him in the end. Some say that regardless they are better off being killed choice or no choice. In this case though, if it is possible it would be better of not. Same with 'Mohammed Emwazi '. Dhaj posted earlier that he doesn't think the 'it will make them martyrs other wise' line is justification for taking them alive, I agree. As far as I am concerned when you are dead you are dead, and Emwazi is where he was before he was born. He is nothing. Any thoughts of martyrdom are their fantasies alone. Do I.S even remember who Bin Laden was? Or any of the others over the past few months and years? As saints, they have very little shelf life. Had Emwazi been captured though, he would not have felt half as brave as he did. He may even have blabbed like a babby, we may have learned something, who knows. Did he want to die? Maybe not, so would have had nothing left but his life. It could have come in useful. Same with Salah Abdeslam, on the run from Paris. Obviously did not want to die like the others, scurried off, even kept calm for the border guards, so someone perhaps penetrable.
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dhajjieboy 913 posts |
Nov 17, 2015, 14:14
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Sanshee... Please do not misquote me. You said: "Dhaj posted earlier that he doesn't think the 'it will make them martyrs other wise' line is justification for taking them alive, I agree." While i'm heartened that anybody might agree with anything i say around here, This is what i actually said: "I myself deny the very premise of 'they become martyrs'.... This is surely 1 way to deny 'them' legitamacy. If in fact Islam is a peacefull religion, it is the Islamist's themselves that need to make this point as a collective entity." There is no opinion expressed about taking anyone 'alive' or otherwise. Thank you.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Nov 17, 2015, 14:19
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Sorry, was trying to trawl through all the quotes, couldn't find it, there are loads, apologies if I misquoted/misread you. Did not intend to.
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Nov 19, 2015, 13:47
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| I believe there's been some attacks over there too, and that idiot in the Joker mask who posted a video threatening to kill an arab a week! | |||
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Captain Starlet 1110 posts |
Edited Nov 19, 2015, 13:55
Nov 19, 2015, 13:52
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I see your point but unfortunately those indoctrinated into that ideology will still see them as martyrs. They don't really seem to care what anyone else think. As for collective identity, Islam doesn't have a sole person to speak for them, neither does Christianity (don't include the Pope as he's RC and many Roman Catholics don't see themselves as Christian per se) but Muslim leaders and followers have indeed been speaking out all over the world. EDIT: I recall Cope mentioning Bobby Sands 'martyrdom' once, not something I'd agree with, but I see the term martyr as something of an individual viewpoint rather than a collective one. https://www.headheritage.co.uk/addressdrudion/85/2014
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