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U-Know! Forum » Gay & Lesbian Rights For Same Sex Marriages in Ireland |
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Markoid 1621 posts |
Edited May 22, 2015, 18:18
May 22, 2015, 18:07
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Yeah. The Catholic church has interfered in too many peoples lives. Go for it! http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/22/irish-voters-set-to-make-history-in-gay-marriage-referendum
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited May 22, 2015, 19:29
May 22, 2015, 19:26
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Markoid wrote: Yeah. The Catholic church has interfered in too many peoples lives. True. But as is so often the case; it's not an entirely black-and-white issue. It's wonderful to see Ireland shake loose from the oppressive shackles of the Catholic Church. But as seems so often the case when a society undergoes a process of rapid secularisation, there's a whole "baby / bathwater" thing... those aspects of religion that are positive and unambiguously beneficial for a society get jettisoned along with the negative stuff. Of course, in an ideal world, we would replace those things with secular versions... but we don't seem to do it very effectively. As someone who attended a Christian Brothers primary school, believe me when I say I'm a long way from being an apologist for - or a defender of - the Catholic Church. Nonetheless I fear we risk long-term harm to Irish society and culture if we just try to rip Catholicism from its heart without regard for collateral damage. It's unlikely Ireland will be able to protect and preserve all the benefits the Church provided while destroying only the dark and twisted aspects. But we don't seem to be even bothering to discriminate between the two. There is no national conversation about this - no attempt to address it; just an increasingly terrified, defensive and shrill Catholic lobby shrieking at an increasingly indifferent nation as its influence drains away. And while that's a very pleasing image for many of us, I do find myself concerned about the unintended consequences of such rapid cultural change. Back in the throes of teenage Marxism I relished the day - which I felt was surely nigh - when we would rise up as one and burn down all churches and cathedrals. These days - with the dubious wisdom of strange experience, and as the world watches ISIS slash and burn its way across the antiquities of old - that seems such a profane idea. There is value in the old ways, so long as we take care to exorcise the demons. As for the referendum - I'm off out to vote now. Oddly enough, and for what may seem like arcane reasons, I'll be voting "No"... ... ... ... ... in the referendum to lower the presidential age*. I'll be voting "Yes" in the Marriage Equality referendum. Of course. ---------------- * bet some of you didn't realise there's actually two referenda today! :-)
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Markoid 1621 posts |
Edited May 24, 2015, 12:11
May 22, 2015, 20:43
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Didn't know there were 2 referenda, but surely the main one in the eyes of the media is equality for gays, lesbians and trans. Many nations state that same sex marriages are ok. If you love someone, then you love someone, nomatter sexuality, race, colour or creed. You know and I know that the Catholic Church in Ireland have far too much power. There is no reason to discriminate. I hope common sense will prevail.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited May 23, 2015, 19:27
May 23, 2015, 19:26
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It's been a relatively foregone conclusion. We always knew the actual result would be closer than the polls suggested, but anything above 60% is fantastic. It's a good day for Ireland today. A very good day. Personally I always viewed this as less a gay rights issue than a human rights issue... in many ways the precise opposite of those who felt gay marriage somehow undermines or lessens hetero marriage. It seems to me that any basic human right, such as the right to marry, is actively undermined and lessened unless it's universal. If a subsection of the population is excluded from a specific right, then those who avail of that right are complicit (albeit entirely unwillingly) in an injustice. So by voting in favour of gay marriage; Ireland has become a better place for all its citizens - straight or gay. Now that the referendum has been won, the legislation will pass through parliament over the summer and Ireland will see its first gay marriages sometime this autumn. Truly great news!
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Markoid 1621 posts |
Edited May 23, 2015, 21:42
May 23, 2015, 21:41
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grufty jim wrote: It's been a relatively foregone conclusion. We always knew the actual result would be closer than the polls suggested, but anything above 60% is fantastic. It's a good day for Ireland today. A very good day. Personally I always viewed this as less a gay rights issue than a human rights issue... in many ways the precise opposite of those who felt gay marriage somehow undermines or lessens hetero marriage. It seems to me that any basic human right, such as the right to marry, is actively undermined and lessened unless it's universal. If a subsection of the population is excluded from a specific right, then those who avail of that right are complicit (albeit entirely unwillingly) in an injustice. So by voting in favour of gay marriage; Ireland has become a better place for all its citizens - straight or gay. Now that the referendum has been won, the legislation will pass through parliament over the summer and Ireland will see its first gay marriages sometime this autumn. Truly great news! Indeed. Just wait for the first gay divorce though. I'd like to see that cat fight!
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited May 24, 2015, 16:07
May 24, 2015, 08:09
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I liked your posts on this subject very much. I wasn't really aware of the referendum until it hit the headlines over the last couple of days. I congratulate Ireland on moving forward to the voice of its younger generations. Am surprised at the amount of BBC coverage given yesterday - it was the leading story all day. In the past it has seemed that Irish news often only gets mentioned in passing (unless its the really negative stuff). The cynic in me thinks that maybe the British Government is courting Ireland as a future EU ally.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
May 24, 2015, 08:24
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grufty jim wrote: It's been a relatively foregone conclusion. We always knew the actual result would be closer than the polls suggested, but anything above 60% is fantastic. It's a good day for Ireland today. A very good day. Personally I always viewed this as less a gay rights issue than a human rights issue... in many ways the precise opposite of those who felt gay marriage somehow undermines or lessens hetero marriage. It seems to me that any basic human right, such as the right to marry, is actively undermined and lessened unless it's universal. If a subsection of the population is excluded from a specific right, then those who avail of that right are complicit (albeit entirely unwillingly) in an injustice. So by voting in favour of gay marriage; Ireland has become a better place for all its citizens - straight or gay. Now that the referendum has been won, the legislation will pass through parliament over the summer and Ireland will see its first gay marriages sometime this autumn. Truly great news! Not sure how this worked before Jim so excuse my ignorance on the subject, but does this now mean that church weddings will take place and illegal not to grant one?
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited May 24, 2015, 17:40
May 24, 2015, 17:39
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Sanctuary wrote: Not sure how this worked before Jim so excuse my ignorance on the subject, but does this now mean that church weddings will take place and illegal not to grant one? No, this is a constitutional and legal issue. Despite the obvious influence of the church over the Irish state throughout the 20th century, there is technically a separation between church and state in Ireland. It's weird, in the UK the church is intrinsically tied to the state; in Ireland it's not - and yet few would disagree that the influence it's had in Ireland has (up until very recently) been far stronger. Even now, Ireland is culturally Catholic whether we like it or not. That sort of thing takes generations to work its way out after all. Up until now, the Irish constitution has defined marriage as being between a man and a woman (which is hardly surprising... after all, the document was written by a bunch of Catholics in the 1930s!) A government cannot change the Irish constitution - that can only be done by referendum. This referendum has removed that restriction, and henceforth the constitution will define marriage as being between two adults - regardless of gender. Leastways it will once the administrative stuff is dealt with in a couple of months. That means the Irish state will now recognise marriage between two men - or two women - as being identical under the law as a marriage between a man and a woman (with all of the commensurate legal protections and family rights). It does not compel any religion or church to consecrate such marriages.
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Markoid 1621 posts |
Edited May 26, 2015, 18:13
May 24, 2015, 18:20
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Legality and the Catholic Church are two different matters. It is legal now to be gay or lesbian in most places. A moral result. TRB - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmR3p3-LN94
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