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Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
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keith a
9572 posts

Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 12, 2011, 16:21
Merrick wrote:
You said what i said was crass. You were invited to elaborate and responded that it was sick. I asked you to elaborate and you gave a dictionary definition of 'crass'. My problem, as I suspect you realise, is not that I don't understand what your word means; it's that I don't see why it applies.

You said it was not 'rational', and when asked to explain you chose instead to say 'there is no point carrying on this conversation'. That is, in itself, carrying on the conversation; it would have been a matter of seconds more to have said what your problem actually is.

Rhiannon pointed out that this is a discussion board and asked if you would respond as it had been presented logically. You acknowledged the logical point and still - having been asked four or five times do do so - refused to elaborate.

By raising points and not explaining them, you're not actually discussing anything. To merely repeat or paraphrase yourself doesn't help anyone understand your point or agree with you, and so negates the purpose of saying anything in the first place. But that is still more communicative than - as you've done more than once on this thread - telling people that what they've said is what they've said, which as a response is something akin to barking.

The purpose of discussion boards is to set out points so that we disabuse one another of misunderstandings and falsehoods. Even if someone's own position is too cherished to be relinquished, it's a public forum with far more reading than participating, so if you're right then you can persuade the reasonable independent third party of your view.

Coming on and going 'bad!' then when being asked why you think that saying 'bad!' again doesn't convince anyone of anything, except that you are unwilling or incapable of giving your reasons. It makes your perspective look unfounded and actually serves to reinforce the position you oppose.

If there are sound reasons for what you think on an issue being discussed, let's hear them. If there are not, and you wish to avoid appearing foolish, then perhaps it's better not to post anything on that topic.


First of all let me just say I've re-read all the entries after reading your message and not all of what you say above is strictly factual if you want to re-read them yourself. But anyway...

I was expressing an opinion that I thought what you had written was crass. I replied as I saw fit. Sorry it appears like 'barking' to you, but I was awaiting some rather important news that day and was unable to get wrapped up in some big on-line discussion.

If disagreeing with you means I look foolish in your eyes, so be it. I just thought you entry read like some Sun-style sensationalism. And as you're the person who wrote the matter I objected to I don't really see how you can write "It makes your perspective look unfounded and actually serves to reinforce the position you oppose." I'm opposing you so of course you think my perspective look unfounded. Doh!

What do you want me to elaborate about? I think the sentence "All but one were lucky enough not to kill someone" was crass. You're saying every single police officer who was on duty there that day was 'lucky' they didn't kill someone. I'm sorry but I find that a ridiculous statement. I don't know what else to say! Someone else said it was a "fairly imflamatory comment". Go back and ask him to explain in great detail why he thinks that if you need everything explained in such great detail.

Rhiannon didn't see why I had an issue with it. That's her right. At least one other person clearly did. Rhiannon gave her explanation about it but just because she argued it logically doesn't mean I have to agree with her / you or conversely that I had to get into some big argument with her. But once we get into the theoretical medical conditions of every person attending then surely you have do that from a protester point of view, too. Are protesters who pushed someone else in the crowd, who threw something, damaged something, hit or kicked a police officer 'lucky' they didn't kill someone? If someone suggested that you'd rightly have something to say about it.

And please don't have a go at me about repeating myself. Kettle? Black? But lest there be any confusion, Merrick, I still think that what you wrote was crass.
Rhiannon
5291 posts

Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 12, 2011, 20:22
But are you not willfully misinterpreting? You are happy to quote the 'all but one of them...' but you miss out the previous bit of Merrick's post, which was about 'hundreds of officers' (which he'd seen because he was there). That's not ALL the officers that were there is it? But that's the premise you've been using. If you're offended because of the 'all'... it's not even the all you're making it out to be in your posts??
keith a
9572 posts

Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 12, 2011, 22:48
Rhiannon wrote:
But are you not willfully misinterpreting? You are happy to quote the 'all but one of them...' but you miss out the previous bit of Merrick's post, which was about 'hundreds of officers' (which he'd seen because he was there). That's not ALL the officers that were there is it? But that's the premise you've been using. If you're offended because of the 'all'... it's not even the all you're making it out to be in your posts??


I'm not wilfully misinterpreting anything. I've got better things to do with my life, Rhiannon.
Ziggypop
Ziggypop
300 posts

Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 13, 2011, 03:42
keith a wrote:
Not sure what your point is seeing as it says "Sgt Andrews was reported by a female police officer".


Sorry missed this post.. Well I'm pointing out that the original assault goes off like business as usual totally ignored by any of the other officers in the room..
Regarding the "Sgt Andrews was reported by a female police officer" I see that simply as the female officer covering her own back later after she finds out that the assault later led to the victim laying knocked out on the cell floor to protect her own position if there were further repercussions, if not then why did nobody step in, including the snitch, before Sgt Andrews reached the cell to deliver what he considers justice?
Rhiannon
5291 posts

Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 13, 2011, 06:16
The 'all' surely applies to the officers that hit the people hard enough. It doesn't apply to all the officers that were there. You're missing the first part of the quote.
keith a
9572 posts

Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 13, 2011, 09:05
Ziggypop wrote:
keith a wrote:
Not sure what your point is seeing as it says "Sgt Andrews was reported by a female police officer".


Sorry missed this post.. Well I'm pointing out that the original assault goes off like business as usual totally ignored by any of the other officers in the room..
Regarding the "Sgt Andrews was reported by a female police officer" I see that simply as the female officer covering her own back later after she finds out that the assault later led to the victim laying knocked out on the cell floor to protect her own position if there were further repercussions, if not then why did nobody step in, including the snitch, before Sgt Andrews reached the cell to deliver what he considers justice?


I've no idea. I was dealing with facts not hypotheses.
Ziggypop
Ziggypop
300 posts

Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 13, 2011, 10:20
keith a wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
keith a wrote:
Not sure what your point is seeing as it says "Sgt Andrews was reported by a female police officer".


Sorry missed this post.. Well I'm pointing out that the original assault goes off like business as usual totally ignored by any of the other officers in the room..
Regarding the "Sgt Andrews was reported by a female police officer" I see that simply as the female officer covering her own back later after she finds out that the assault later led to the victim laying knocked out on the cell floor to protect her own position if there were further repercussions, if not then why did nobody step in, including the snitch, before Sgt Andrews reached the cell to deliver what he considers justice?


I've no idea. I was dealing with facts not hypotheses.


Fair enough I suppose. Like Bill Hicks once said of a similiar bit of footage "if you run the tape backwards you can clearly see the police officer helping her up and sending her on her way peacfully".
Locodogz
Locodogz
254 posts

Edited May 13, 2011, 11:44
Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 13, 2011, 11:20
Not really sure about your interpretation here? - "all" is fairly unequivocal (as opposed to "all those who hit protesters")? Also followed by an equally unequivocal "all coppers are bastards" type quote I seem to recall.

You’ve also got this use of ‘all’

Merrick wrote:
How his colleagues don't react at all, indicating they had all done similar things dozens of times that day.


To which I responded

“Don't get me wrong - I think my earlier posts make it clear I'm no apologist for wankers like PC Harwood - but the claim that a lack of reaction from his colleagues mean "they had all done similar things" seems sonething of a stretch....”


That said I've now asked twice as to how someone could possibly know and describe the actions of every officer on duty that day which would, you'd think, give ample opportunity to clarify the remark?
Merrick
Merrick
2148 posts

Edited May 15, 2011, 12:29
Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 15, 2011, 12:07
Sorry for not responding to you earlier, Locodogz.

You're right, I certainly can't claim every officer hit people hard that day; I didn't intend to make or imply such a claim. Many hundreds did though and many hundreds more witnessed it (the footage clearly show it), and yet it appears to have been done with impunity.

The use of 'all' was referring to al the significant proportion of officers who committed crimes yet have not been investigated or punished.

Locodogz wrote:
You’ve also got this use of ‘all’

Merrick wrote:
How his colleagues don't react at all, indicating they had all done similar things dozens of times that day.


What's the problem with that? What reaction do you see Harwood's colleagues having to the assault on Tomlinson?
Merrick
Merrick
2148 posts

Re: Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
May 15, 2011, 12:24
keith a wrote:
First of all let me just say I've re-read all the entries after reading your message and not all of what you say above is strictly factual if you want to re-read them yourself.


Either make your point or don't; but vague slurs help nobody.

keith a wrote:
I was expressing an opinion that I thought what you had written was crass. I replied as I saw fit.


And what you saw fit to do was either restate your point instead of explain, or tell someone that they had said what they had said. Both actions are pointless and undermine the purpose of a discussion board.

keith a wrote:
If disagreeing with you means I look foolish in your eyes, so be it.


No it doesn't. I didn't say that and I don't think that. I said that if you do not have sound reasons for your opinions then expressing them will make you look foolish.

keith a wrote:
I don't really see how you can write "It makes your perspective look unfounded and actually serves to reinforce the position you oppose." I'm opposing you so of course you think my perspective look unfounded. Doh!


There are lots of opinions I disagree with that have foundation. I'm often disagreed with on this board - I think it's even happened in this thread - with foundation.

I was trying to say that you have to give reasons for what you think, as repeating short statements of position without giving reasons - especially when you've been asked to give reasons - makes it appear that you have none.

keith a wrote:
What do you want me to elaborate about? I think the sentence "All but one were lucky enough not to kill someone" was crass.


I know that. What I want you to elaborate about is *why* you think that.

keith a wrote:
You're saying every single police officer who was on duty there that day was 'lucky' they didn't kill someone.


No I'm not. I said "we can be confident that not one officer arrested a colleague that day despite witnessing repeated criminal assaults. Hundreds of officers, thousands of crimes, no charges brought. This means that they all breached their sworn duty and a huge proportion of them committed crimes themselves. All but one were lucky enough not to kill someone and have it caught on film that went to a lefty media outlet."

I am not referring to all the officers, nor even all the ones who committed assaults. I am referring to all the ones who committed crimes of violence or failure to report assaults but did not get singled out for media scrutiny.

keith a wrote:
once we get into the theoretical medical conditions of every person attending


I didn't mention that at all.

keith a wrote:
And please don't have a go at me about repeating myself.


I was having a go at you for refusing to give reasons for your stated opinion.

keith a wrote:
Rhiannon gave her explanation about it but just because she argued it logically doesn't mean I have to agree with her / you or conversely that I had to get into some big argument with her.


It's a discussion board. If you state a position without reason then people who disagree are entitle to expect you to give your reasons, otherwise it's not a discussion.
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