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U-Know! Forum » Blasphemy made illegal in Ireland |
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Runic Sunnyview 46 posts |
Jul 24, 2009, 19:38
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Like the article says...'Witness the return of the Dark Ages.' Unbelievable: http://www.palibandaily.com/2009/07/09/ireland-makes-blasphemy-illegal/
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PMM 3155 posts |
Edited Jul 24, 2009, 20:15
Jul 24, 2009, 19:54
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We only abolished it in the UK in March last year.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited Jul 24, 2009, 21:22
Jul 24, 2009, 21:20
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Runic Sunnyview wrote: Like the article says...'Witness the return of the Dark Ages.' Unbelievable: http://www.palibandaily.com/2009/07/09/ireland-makes-blasphemy-illegal/ Normally this is the kind of thing I'd be up in arms about, but actually it's somewhat deceptive and needs to be considered in a little bit more depth than that article achieves. Far from being a "return of the Dark Ages" it's actually a pretty interesting piece of legislation. Firstly it's important to understand the context. The Irish Constitution includes the following statement: "The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion." However, there's never been any actual legislation to back this up excluding specific laws protecting Christianity (not just the Catholic Church). This wasn't particularly inconsistent while Ireland had little or no immigration. Now, however, there are sizeable minorities in the country who are religious but non-Christian. It became quite clear that legislation and the Consitution were technically contradicting one another (the Constitution does not single out Christianity for protection but the law did). As a result, the government was forced either to change the Constitution (a long process that involves holding a referendum, which was far from guaranteed to pass) or else to update legislation. They chose the latter. However, they were very careful about this new law and it includes the following remarkable "get out" clause: "It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value in the matter to which the offence relates." This paragraph is hardly consistent with the "Dark Ages" claim. Indeed, it pretty much nullifies the entire law in my opinion. So ultimately, this law is little more than an 'administrative tidy up'. It seeks to bring legislation in line with the Constitution without (a) a referendum, and (b) being a genuine attack on free speech. No, it's not an ideal solution. But it's far from the extreme law that it's being painted. ----- Interestingly, I actually think this legislation fails to achieve consistency with the Constitution. The new law overtly covers "matters held sacred by any religion" (my emphasis), but the Constitution speaks of a single, male deity. So polytheists and Goddess worshippers are covered by the new law while the Constitution pretty much excludes them.
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Cheema Deepinder 46 posts |
Edited Jul 25, 2009, 10:27
Jul 25, 2009, 10:27
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Another blow for this backward peasant society. They all have the automatic right to settle in the UK if they want to be free of the peculiar Irish version of the Catholic church.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited Jul 25, 2009, 10:44
Jul 25, 2009, 10:42
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Cheema Deepinder wrote: Another blow for this backward peasant society. They all have the automatic right to settle in the UK if they want to be free of the peculiar Irish version of the Catholic church. Ireland's a "backward peasant society"? Sorry, but that's a load of bollocks. Catholicism has been a scourge on Irish society and thankfully we are at last beginning to break free of it. But to throw off one yoke merely to adopt another seems peculiarly absurd to me. So the UK can keep their ID cards, anti-terrorist legislation and encroaching police state. Me and the other backward peasants over here can do without them, thanks very much. Backward fucking peasants! Have you any idea what modern Ireland is actually like? Or are you buying into some bloody begorrah-top-of-the-morning stereotype?
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Cheema Deepinder 46 posts |
Jul 25, 2009, 19:34
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What is modern Ireland like? I thought it looked the same despite the trappings of consumer goods and high house prices.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Jul 25, 2009, 23:06
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Cheema Deepinder wrote: What is modern Ireland like? I thought it looked the same despite the trappings of consumer goods and high house prices. Well, let's see. For a start the Irish population is largely urbanised now. The latest figures suggest a level of urbanisation -- mid 60s in percentage terms -- that compares to the Netherlands, Japan, Switzerland, Italy, etc. Of the remainder, very few are agricultural workers. So when you describe Ireland as a "peasant" society, you are clearly either (a) completely uninformed, or (b) using the definition of "peasant" that means "An uncouth, crude, or ill-bred person; a boor". And frankly that's the kind of statement about the Irish that I find insulting and borderline racist. It's worth pointing out that I don't think urbanisation is a positive step for the Irish population. Nonetheless, it's a fact of life and using the word "peasant" is either insulting or inaccurate. Which did you intend? Secondly, the accusation that Ireland is a "backward" society, coupled with the advice to emigrate to the UK, suggests that you see Ireland as "backwards" in comparison to the UK. Now, I'm Irish and was born here. But I actually lived the vast majority of my life overseas. Indeed, I only moved back here 3 years ago after a 15 year stint in the UK. Prior to that I've lived in Greece, Egypt, Brazil, Spain, Germany, the USA and worked in perhaps a dozen countries -- most of which would be described as "third world". So I'm probably in as good a position as anybody to judge the relative levels of "backwardness" of Ireland versus the UK. As well as the UK and Ireland versus other places. Without a doubt, I hate what Catholicism has done to the Irish... the dark shadow it has cast upon our collective soul. But we are emerging from that shadow. It's a slow and painful process but we are going through it. However when I hear a person recommend the UK as some beacon of enlightenment in comparison... the UK, whose colonial past casts just as dark a shadow as Catholicism ever cast on the Irish. Whose colonial past it was that drove Ireland into the clutches of the church in the first place. A nation that possesses the only hereditary governing chamber in the world. A nation whose people are still subjects of a monarch as opposed to citizens! Well, in that context, when I hear people call the Irish "backward peasants" and recommend the UK as an escape, it simply reminds me that the old bigoted colonial mindset is still alive and well. Ireland has plenty of problems. And I do not wish to minimise them. But to hear the nation of Thatcher calling us backwards is a bit fucking rich. Don't get me wrong... we are backwards. But only in the sense that we have become just as enthralled to the toxic corporate-capitalist mindset as almost everyone else. We are backwards. But only because we are following the lead of those driving us in that direction. Peasants? No. Backwards? Yes. But only in the same sense the UK is.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Jul 26, 2009, 02:59
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Would anyone seriously enforce this bullshit?
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Jul 26, 2009, 11:10
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Brilliantly put, Jim. Cheema, I think you owe it to us to explain what you base your assertion of 'backward peasant society' on or apologise.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Jul 26, 2009, 11:27
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handofdave wrote: Would anyone seriously enforce this bullshit? As I said earlier, it seems clear to me that the law was deliberately written in such a way as to be essentially unenforceable. Constitutional scholars recognised that it was necessary to bring legislation in line with the Constitution, but at the same time the government was unwilling to genuinely assault the right of the Irish to free speech (even if they wanted to, EU law would make that rather difficult). I see this law as an honest attempt to find a solution that would keep everyone happy. No, it's not perfect, but nor is it draconian or repressive. (IMO)
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