handofdave
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Re: in a Stalinist country, take 'populism' with a one ton grain of salt
Jun 26, 2009, 15:00
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There's lots to go into there, but I should point out that Winston in '1984' only comes to love Big Brother after he's tortured and thoroughly brainwashed. The two minute hate was a way for Oceana to divert the anger and frustration it engendered away from itself and toward a safe target. For a society living in a constant state of paranoia, any sort of sanctioned chance to unleash rage is taken advantage of. Scapegoating gives people someone to blame. Ever read or see the chilling play 'The Lottery'?
Yeah, sure, there must be some N.Koreans that believe all the crazy horseshit they're fed, but that's mostly because they get no other sources of information.
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handofdave
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Re: in a Stalinist country, take 'populism' with a one ton grain of salt
Jun 26, 2009, 15:13
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Well, that's the real trick, isn't it? Who writes this new constitution? Who enforces it? How do you get everyone on board thru persuasion and not coercion?
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grufty jim
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Edited Jun 26, 2009, 15:34
Re: in a Stalinist country, take 'populism' with a one ton grain of salt
Jun 26, 2009, 15:34
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handofdave wrote: There's lots to go into there, but I should point out that Winston in '1984' only comes to love Big Brother after he's tortured and thoroughly brainwashed.
Uh-huh. But he's one of the tougher ones; the protagonist of a novel no less. Most never need to visit Room 101.
And I think it's fair to assume that daily life in North Korea features many forms of "torture and brainwashing". Part of everyone's routine. For the past couple of generations.
handofdave wrote: The two minute hate was a way for Oceana to divert the anger and frustration it engendered away from itself and toward a safe target. For a society living in a constant state of paranoia, any sort of sanctioned chance to unleash rage is taken advantage of. Scapegoating gives people someone to blame.
I'm not arguing with that. Merely that Orwell wants us to realise that it works. The hate and anger is real. And it's directed outwards. Then when the image of Big Brother (the Glorious Leader) is displayed, there's the hit of endorphins that all that rage sparked off. Peace, comfort... love.
handofdave wrote: Yeah, sure, there must be some N.Koreans that believe all the crazy horseshit they're fed, but that's mostly because they get no other sources of information.
That certainly has a lot to do with it alright.
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Squid Tempest
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Re: in a Stalinist country, take 'populism' with a one ton grain of salt
Jun 26, 2009, 15:40
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Jim Tones wrote: PMM wrote: What on earth are you talking about?...
"Other people" find what you're saying to be annoying and offensive. No they don't just use secret emails and other websites. They tell you to your face, as they've done here.
I wasn't making a reference to things that happened today- it's something you obviously don't know anything about, no problem.
As for the 'other website' reference, it's probably best that I let it rest until I meet said people in person and sort it out then.
I still say there seems to be a 'hidden code of conduct' as to how people post etc.,
BUT, after all, it's only a messageboard and not live TV!
Yup, I've been through it before, best stick to views on music then.
Hi Jim - is this me and the biscuit board you're referring to? If so, your fears are unfounded. we rarely, if ever, discuss HH matters "over there" any more. most people "over there" don't even visit here much anymore. There is certainly no 'hidden code of conduct' emanating from our neck of the woods, honest guv.
just thought I'd mention this in case anyone jumps to any conclusions. And, for the record, I'm still looking forward to meeting up again and having a beer and a laugh at some point - you're quite right that that would sort it all out I think (I hope). storm in a teacup etc...
Sorry to go off-topic folks.
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Jim Tones
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Re: in a Stalinist country, take 'populism' with a one ton grain of salt
Jun 26, 2009, 15:49
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I wasn't making reference to you either ST!
No problem folks, harmony reigns- have a grand weekend all
;-)
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PMM
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Re: in a Stalinist country, take 'populism' with a one ton grain of salt
Jun 26, 2009, 15:52
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Will do :)
Day off today, and the devil will find work for idle hands...
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Squid Tempest
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Re: in a Stalinist country, take 'populism' with a one ton grain of salt
Jun 26, 2009, 15:53
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Jim Tones wrote: I wasn't making reference to you either ST!
No problem folks, harmony reigns- have a grand weekend all
;-)
Phew! Just call me Mr Paranoid!
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neighbourofthedrude
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Edited Jun 26, 2009, 15:57
Here you go..
Jun 26, 2009, 15:55
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Mr Paranoid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZyVZFJGX5g
;o)
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Squid Tempest
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Re: Here you go..
Jun 26, 2009, 15:58
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Can't watch pootube from work...
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grufty jim
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Edited Jun 26, 2009, 16:04
Re: in a Stalinist country, take 'populism' with a one ton grain of salt
Jun 26, 2009, 16:03
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handofdave wrote: Well, that's the real trick, isn't it? Who writes this new constitution?
I might give it a shot. How about you? I hope lots and lots of people do.
See I'm not sure that I'm communicating the central point here... there is no option. We are involved in the wholesale destruction of our ecology. The limits of our natural resources are being reached. The way society is currently structured is fundamentally flawed. If we do nothing, just allow the selfish desires of the wealthy to dictate how we focus our strength and energy, then we are lost. And we are condemning all who follow us to a far darker world than it needs to be.
So we need alternatives. And by definition those alternatives will be authoritarian, for the very problem they must solve is that of a lack of restraint.
handofdave wrote: Who enforces it?
An agency tasked with enforcing it. Exactly the same as we do now. We currently have laws which are enforced by an authority. We would continue to do so. Except some of those laws would not be subject to popular mandate.
handofdave wrote: How do you get everyone on board thru persuasion and not coercion?
In an ideal world, you produce a compelling argument, present it to the public and spark a popular revolution. In reality, you produce the compelling argument, wait for the inevitable socio-economic collapse and hope it gets adopted by a desperate populace.
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