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handofdave 3515 posts |
Sep 21, 2008, 05:08
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It's so telling he chooses to use the word 'function' instead of something with more spin, like 'unfortunate side effect'. Perhaps the economic 'soft' predator class has become so accustomed to fleecing us without serious consequence they've just quit pretending.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Sep 21, 2008, 14:49
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"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." --James Madison "I am afraid that the ordinary citizen will not like to be told that the banks can and do create and destroy money. And they who control the credit of a nation direct the policy of governments, and hold in the hollow of their hands the destiny of the people." --Richard McKenna "Capital must protect itself in every way... Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principle men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd." --JP Morgan "Once a nation parts with the control of its currency and credit, it matters not who makes the nations laws. Usury, once in control, will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most sacred responsibility, all talk of the sovereignty of parliament and of democracy is idle and futile." --William Lyon Mackenzie King "All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." --John Adams
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Moon Cat 9577 posts |
Edited Sep 23, 2008, 13:40
Sep 23, 2008, 12:51
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Thanks PMM. Illuminating and depressing reading. The JP Morgan quote in particular underlines completely the tycoon-as-sociopath notion. sigh. EDIT: dude, I hope you don't mind but I've actually copied these quotes in an email I've just sent to the BBC business and finance show "Working Lunch". I think the JP Morgan quote should especially be waved in peoples faces as to the nature of the 'dark side' of captalism, and what 'they' have always thought of 'us'.
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Rockabilly 206 posts |
Sep 23, 2008, 14:48
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What gets me is the constant mantra capitalism good socialism bad. Except it appears when all the good capitalists have made some stupid mistakes and there institutions are about to collapse around them. All off a sudden state intervention in a very socialist kind of way is perfectly acceptable. Hypocritic bastards!
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Sep 23, 2008, 15:17
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Rockabilly wrote: What gets me is the constant mantra capitalism good socialism bad. Except it appears when all the good capitalists have made some stupid mistakes and there institutions are about to collapse around them. All off a sudden state intervention in a very socialist kind of way is perfectly acceptable. Hypocritic bastards! What I find most interesting about the proposed 'bail-outs' using public money is exactly *who* is getting bailed out. Millions of people face having their homes repossessed because they can no longer afford to pay their debt. This, in turn, means that the institutions who loaned them money are facing ruin.* To me, if public money is to be spent, it should be spent paying off those mortgages so that people retain possession of their homes. Instead it's being given to the large institutions in order to keep them afloat, meaning that repossessions will continue apace. It is the ultimate expression of capital protecting its own at the expense of the people. (little known fact, the original tax-rebate handed out by Dubya when he took office would have paid off almost every mortgage in danger of default. Those of us who used the phrase "short-sighted" at the time are being completely vindicated, though it's really not much consolation) Literal translation of the French word "mortgage"... Pledge of death. * That's rather simplistic and is only half the story, but it's the half that affects millions of homeowners, rather than the half that affects thousands of financiers.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Sep 23, 2008, 16:06
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feel free. I copied and pasted them from someone elses post somewhere else. We're not the only ones talking about this...
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PMM 3155 posts |
Sep 23, 2008, 16:10
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they are indeed baling out of investment and moving into commodities... gold and silver in particular. http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/ticker/winnerslosers/2/default.stm
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Sep 23, 2008, 16:19
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Lenders made too many loans with stars in their eyes... the idea was that they'd have everyone mortgaged to the hilt with the fat interests and fees on those borrowing's keeping the wealthy in the lifestyle to which they're accustomed. Of course, nobody did the math that would have shown this plan for what it is... a fantasy. Every industry with Washington connections in America got it into their heads over the last decade that the new paradigm in economics was to simply take the restraints off greed and take the consumers for everything they've got. Too bad the consumers weren't able to meet the demands of all of them at once. There's plenty of blame to go around, tho you can't get down to hard on the people who got stuck having to buy during the last insane cycle of speculative house pricing... they were forced to borrow large to meet wildly overinflated home prices. (I'm not talking about the house-flippers and the people who bought way more house than they needed... which is what a lot of contractors were hooked on building during that whole blindly exuberant time.) I was one- tho I did, luckily in a way, have to work within a budget and am paying a fair rate on a very inexpensive home, by today's standards, anyway.
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stray 2057 posts |
Edited Sep 23, 2008, 17:24
Sep 23, 2008, 17:19
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grufty jim wrote: To me, if public money is to be spent, it should be spent paying off those mortgages so that people retain possession of their homes. Instead it's being given to the large institutions in order to keep them afloat, meaning that repossessions will continue apace. It is the ultimate expression of capital protecting its own at the expense of the people.. This wouldnt work, would take too long (the market would *poof* vanish in the meantime), would cost even more, and would put even more money into the pockets of those responsible. They are paying cents on the dollar for these debts after all. Arguably, as the govt will hold the debt it's the govt that will control the repayments/forclosure rate amounting to the same end game. Albeit controlling it through several layers of abstraction. The bail out is shit, no argument there, but there is now absolutely no alternative. As I guessed/predicted earlier in this thread Investment banking is now over, gone, and it may never return. This is a good thing, and the source of much rejoicing as far as I'm concerned. Deregulation always just meant reregulation, and painful as it is to admit the seeds of this crap seem to be in the sorta social engineering of Clinton/Reno by pretty much encouraging banks to loan to people who could never afford it. That and artificially holding down interest rates (fed discount), and of course the new debt market system, sprung up out of it and, compounded it all. I am a socialist, but I don't see this nationalising of the debt to be much of a socialist act in itself. Now, how the govt (or more importantly the next one coming in) use this new debt power to leverage and control the market could lead to some socialist financial policies. But I doubt it. It is important though for all this to have more oversight than Paulson and whoever else he choses to recruit. An aside: Morgan Stanley is the clown of the debacle though, they've been entertaining me since this started, from inviting CIC (china) to own them to bidding to manage the bailout. Ha. What cards they are. They seriously suggested managing the money that will be used to bail them out and then bill the US people for it. That would have been special.
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Vybik Jon 7717 posts |
Sep 23, 2008, 17:36
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Monty Python - looking forward and on the ball. Including having the shirt off your back! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlS8O257Gi0
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