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Merrick 2148 posts |
Aug 15, 2001, 20:44
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I'd start by not having the USA pretending it can broker some kind of objective or fair agreement. The USA has the biggest Jewish population on earth, they shoiuldn't ever be given any credibility as a non-partisan party in this. Another helpful thing would be for the international community to be as vigorous in pursuing Israeli breaches of international law as they are in pursuing, say, Serbs or Iraqis. Solutions? I don't have one, and it's really not for someone who's never been part of the dispute and never studied the real cogs and gears of it to say. But it does seem obvious that bolstering up one side is no route to fair resolution in any conflict.
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maff 1 posts |
Aug 15, 2001, 23:58
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Part of the reason for the Intifada is that Israelis are illeagaly occupying palastinian land, as part of the Daton (UN) Accords Israel should not be setting up settlements in certain areas where they are (I can't remember the name at the mo). The situation in Palestine can be compared with that of apartheid in South Africa, as a result various groups (Campaign for Palestinian Rights and Palestine Solidarity Campaign) are trying to encourage people to boycott Israeli produce, tourism, kibutzism etc. It is also necessary to point out that I am not anti-semetic but anti Zionist.
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Aug 16, 2001, 12:29
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the fact that the USA has a large jewish population if, i think, completely unrelated to the fact that they support israel so whole-heartedly. after all they have an even larger black population, but it doesnt make them anti-racist. us support for israel is down too the fact that they are the us's attack dog in the middle-east. from the lebanon top syria to egypt even, israel keeps the arabs down, and threatens to blow arabia off the face of the earth. were the entire jewish population of the us to move to israel tomorrow, and the displaced palestinians moved to the us, israel would still be their number one.
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cody 22 posts |
Aug 18, 2001, 03:19
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America will always look out for Israel. The news media here always makes the palestinians out to be the bad guys. The majority of Americans think the palestinians are out of line. Must have something to do with that promised land jibber jabber. I don't agree with terrorism but I also don't agree with bullying people off their land. Wasn't one of those Redgrave sisters a PLO supporter? I don't remember. I read in the paper today about Bush's approval ratings in Europe. It's unanimous He Sucks!
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Aug 19, 2001, 21:33
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The news tonight called the firing of Israeli at Palestinian buildings and the shooting dead of two Palestinians (one only 14) by Israeli troops 'skirmishes'. If I go and blow up a couple of police stations and shoot two people would I just be causing a 'skirmish'?
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Aug 20, 2001, 10:28
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actually, it was yesterday; but on the subject of the conflict in palestine... a news reporter (on beeb news 24) managed to read the following line: "a 14 year old palestinian boy was shot dead by israeli soldiers for allegedly throwing stones at the authorities" and placed the emphasis on "allegedly"... as though the real emphasis shouldn't be on the "shot dead... for throwing stones" bit. kind of like; well the israelis *claim* he was throwing stones - but we're going to display our lack of bias by not taking that at face value and assuming his innocence until shown otherwise... casually brushes over the reality that even if the 14 year old was guilty of throwing stones, he's still innocent of any offence that warrants the death penalty.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Aug 21, 2001, 11:15
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It's not even classifiable(?) as a 'death penalty'. Right or Wrong. that would imply some considered contemplation of the evidence and circumstances. What happened there was just plain fucking murder.
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cancer boy 977 posts |
Aug 22, 2001, 14:23
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Then again, I wouldn't advocate pelting the soldiers with big rocks either. Firstly, anyone remember non-violent protest as advocated by Ghandi, Martin Luther King and so on? Terribly unfashionable these days when you can put on a mask and smash the windows on someone's family business for bearing the logo of an evil international franchise. Secondly, why are children allowed into the streets to throw rocks anyway? Do their parents just not care? Or are they prepared to sacrifice them to promote the cause? What's the probability of someone getting shot if you stand there throwing rocks at the Isreali army for long enough? A cynical person might suggest that if we factor that into the equation we get: Peaceful protest = makes the local freesheet if you're lucky Young kid (set up to be) shot by security forces = makes the international news. I'm sure you'd all be just as supportive if the National Front were out stoning the police in Britain - they only want their land back after all.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Aug 24, 2001, 09:06
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Yeah ... one of my reasons for living to this ripe old age is by adopting a policy of not throwing rocks at people with guns .... ... but it still don't make it right if the fucker shoots me. What's wrong with simply kicking the shit out of me? Or doing Batfink impressions "HA! You're rocks cannot hurt me! My bullet proof armour is like a shield of steel!"
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Aug 24, 2001, 12:21
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> > I'm sure you'd all be just as > supportive if the National Front > were out stoning the police in > Britain - they only want their land > back after all. > whilst i am not going to get into a debate on the rights and wrongs of the current situation in the middle east (this is hardly the forum), i couldn't let the above comment go unanswered. firstly, i genuinely fail to see how anyone - with even a cursory knowledge of the situation - could compare the population of the Gaza strip and the West Bank, to the NF in this country. the two don't bear comparison, and trying to imply that Israel is up against some fringe organisation with the support of a fraction of the indigenous population whose actions are driven entirely by prejudice and bigotry just doesn't wash. the NF have not been forced to live in refugee camps for much of their lives. They have not witnessed a foreign army of occupation evict them from their homes and build colonial settlements on what was once, legally, their land. They are not denied basic freedom of movement (by armed men in tanks) when attempting to travel to the neighbouring town, and not subjected to random search, arrest and incarceration (without trial) by said men in tanks. They are not economically deprived to the extent that they can only provide for their families from the food distributed through aid agencies. They have not witnessed the total destruction of their way of life. for although the NF may claim that's what's happening in britain, i think most sane people would agree; they're just plain wrong. whereas that claim made by a Palestinian living in a refugee camp who's been evicted by people with guns should probably be greeted with less scepticism. the fact is, cancer boy, the united nations as a whole - and just about every nation on the planet, individually - has stated categorically that the palestinians have a justifiable grievance which israel is *illegally* ignoring. secondly, and of vital importance, is the fact that if right wing extremists were to begin throwing rocks at police during the next NF march in Oldham (for example), i would condemn them along with every other decent person in the land. however, if the police response was to gun down the stone throwers, and then call in military helicopters to level the area of the town in which some of those rock throwers are believed to have lived, then you can be bloody sure that whilst my sympathies would never be with the NF, i WOULD be condemning the police / military of this country just as much as i condemn the israeli security forces for their actions. what israel is doing in the occupied territories is illegal under international law and quite simply morally reprehensible. that does not justify the palestinian use of violence against random israeli civilian targets, but just because a number of palestinians choose to respond viciously to the circumstances of their oppression, cannot be used as a justification for the continuance of that oppression.
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